Ukraine

[Casually Red]

Using missiles, rockets, artillery, bombs etc is very relevant to whether the level of force being used is proportionate and discriminating. Ukraine has the hardware to completely flatten the anti-Maiden HQ buildings if it chose to but it obviously doesn't want to do so.

Out of interest, if someone is part of a 'force' (ie an armed combatant) then are they really a 'civilian'? If they aren't armed combatants then how are they part of a 'force'?

why have they incinerated that building in Maruipol with all those cops inside then

 

[Casually Red]

Pampered leftists cheering on shot down fascist helicopters with working class ukrainian in it. Yarosh must fucking love you. Makes me fucking sick.

these same helicopters have been regularly ferrying right sector units into these areas to terrorise and kill the locals,as well as using rocket artillery on their opponents to provide these fascist militias with overwhelming firepower against concentrations of resistance . So a fascist helicopter is a pretty apt description. You also have no idea what social class the pilot belongs to . None whatsoever yet you use this invention as the basis to make a pretty blatant appeal for class solidarity towards members of a force of outright oppression and terror .

its apparent therefore from these comments and your state department like unshakable conviction a Russian invasion is imminent any day now despite overwhelming evidence otherwise , despite your protestations to the contrary youre extremely biased in this entire affair .

personally speaking i doubt very much that Mr Yarosh would love sunny jim for saying such nasty things about the flyboys transporting his nazi killer gangs around eastern ukraine. Itd be interesting though to know what he makes of your assertion the deliberate and merciless mass murder and rape inside the trade union building was an accident though . And the seemingly shared belief of yourself and a few others that Russia is Ukraines eternal enemy and that armed conflict between the 2 is inevitable. Which just happens to be the central premise of his own Russophobic hate mongering.

the deliberate strangulation of that heavily pregnant woman made me sick. As did the sight of that raped and burnt woman the same filthy animals butchered . Nausea levels increased at the western media s blaming the victims for it. And when the wanky Kiev anarchists you quoted as reliable commentators joined in with that utter horseshit and called it an accident it was well and truly time for the sick bucket .

But a helicopter gunship that ferries Yaroshes squads about getting blown out of the sky while firing rockets at his juntas opponents, not a flying fuck do I give for it or the fate of the facist collaaborators flying it, or what social class they spring from. Its just a pity that he wasnt in it at the time .

 

[Casually Red]

wouldn't occam's razor suggest that if the march was attacked by people in red arm bands and the buildings those attacked targeted had people wearning red arm bands in it they were probably the same people and that's why it was attacked? And that given that we know the police etc are split, especially in these areas, it's perfectly possible that anti-Kiev police attacked the march and pro-Kiev police helped coordinate the revenge attack?

Seems more plausible to me than a conspiracy to provoke that would have put the lives of the conspirators in the building in grave danger.

theres no sign of any red armbands on the dead bodies, and ive seen photos of plenty. theres evidence ive posted of some of the attackers going into the building also wearing immediately identifiable red colours, albeit tied around their wrists . The cops working closely with the shooters also definitely wore the very same red armbands as the shooters . The red colour appears to me to be an identification signal, to distinguish friend from foe.

the same police commander who was seen co operating with the initial shooters also seems to be the same commander present at the massacre in the trade union building.

 

[Casually Red]

So, the "rehabilitation of Nazism" is banned in Russia. Germany, as I recall, has had a similar law for nigh on 70 years. Better late than never, I suppose.
Interesting that this law is also being used to stop any action that might be defined as denigration of the Soviet Union during the war, too.

pity they dont have a similar law in Ukraine, were the full rehabilitation of nazism has been in full swing for years now. The lack of one at the BBC which frequently referred to Bandera as a partisan leader and freedom fighter is also pretty noticable .

heres the crowds reaction when their newly appointed junta governor took the opportunity to extend the regimes rehabilitation of nazism even further during the victory day, by calling Adolf Hitler a liberator .



hes a moderate by the way, from Timoshenkos party . The Pro Communist woman with the child in her arms does the right thing. Her child shouldnt have to listen to that shit and neither should anyone elses. A new generation will be regularly poisoned with this filth and thats why people will oppose them. Theres fuck all difference between the moderate leaders and Yaroshes party. Same shit, different shovel is all.

thats why regardless of any oddball fash micro outfit popping up on the anti junta side im pretty sure im supporting anti fascists against dirty pro fascist scum right accross the board

 

[Casually Red]

Were all those people on the ultras march fash then? I'm sure that a lot of them were just football fans or worried locals, same as the other side.

and rapists, and pregnant woman stranglers. Obviously worried about something or other . Them being good working class rapists and pregnant woman stranglers, concerned everyday citizens etc.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

But hes calling for de escalation now while Russia have seemingly yet again wrongfooted the west by themselves descalating and taking the diplomatic route with the OSCE as opposed to the military one. Leaving NATO as the ones engaged in a military build up while inextricably aligned to an increasingly basket case regime full of nazis whove sent the tanks out against the people . The western powers, particularly the US seem to have painted themselves into a tricky corner here with their agressive line and persuit of short sighted victory at all costs. The call for western de escalation comes as its apparent Putin hasnt taken the bait and blundered in with guns blazing as was expected .

And worse still seems to have cemented an even firmer relationship with China as opposed to becoming in conflict with it as was expected.

http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2604091&Itemid=1

The US has spun such a massive lie here and been so aggressive in its support for allies who are plainly unfit for office and being exposed as such that they risk serious loss of face in Europe. The state Ukraine is in now and the pedigree of the ruling regime will soon make it a pariah internationally as their madness unfolds . The junta launched its first mass offensive when the head of the CIA was in Kiev. They relaunched it when Biden came to meet them . It hasnt even remotely dampened the enthusiasm of th federalists for revolt, only fanned the flames further . Leaving no options open to them except either further repression or concessions to people who will be even more bolstered politically than they were a month ago by the support the mass repression and over the top militarism accrues for them .

With right sector and similar scum armed, empowered and in the feild massacres and atrocities are inevitable. Without deescalation its the US that will be firmly implicated in those atrocities and forced to defend the indefensible, right on Europes doorstep.

I was more attempting to highlight their strategic objectives and yes I'm kind of wrong to say it's a win-win for the West, as you said they have inherited a basket case. But then at the exact same time this is by far no positive event for Russia with sanctions, the possibility of civil war on your door step, a fascist regime, a hub for Russia's own Nazi's and the loss of a geostrategically important ally. The problem is it's impossible to predict how the events in Kiev will play out in the years to come, at the moment it's just the early days and diplomatic assurances are not the best way to predict future conflict spots. Both states have vested interest in the region and the loss of Ukraine will more than likely push Russia into a more assertive policy in the region http://thediplomat.com/2014/05/dont-contain-russia-push-it-east/ and http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...entral-asia-russia-vs-201422585652677510.html.

Nonetheless, nothing in geostrategy is guaranteed and the US has a history of fucking the world in geostrategic gambles that either never work, or result in more destruction than what they started with. I personally feel that US policy will more than likely push Russia and China into closer relations as beyond diplomatic dialogue their quite aware that the US is attempting to contain them.

 

[Casually Red]

I was more attempting to highlight their strategic objectives and yes I'm kind of wrong to say it's a win-win for the West, as you said they have inherited a basket case. But then at the exact same time this is by far no positive event for Russia with sanctions, the possibility of civil war on your door step, a fascist regime, a hub for Russia's own Nazi's and the loss of a geostrategically important ally. The problem is it's impossible to predict how the events in Kiev will play out in the years to come, at the moment it's just the early days and diplomatic assurances are not the best way to predict future conflict spots. Both states have vested interest in the region and the loss of Ukraine will more than likely push Russia into a more assertive policy in the region http://thediplomat.com/2014/05/dont-contain-russia-push-it-east/ and http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...entral-asia-russia-vs-201422585652677510.html.

Nonetheless, nothing in geostrategy is guaranteed and the US has a history of fucking the world in geostrategic gambles that either never work, or result in more destruction than what they started with. I personally feel that US policy will more than likely push Russia and China into closer relations as beyond diplomatic dialogue their quite aware that the US is attempting to contain them.

Id agree russia certainly hasnt won here, its merely a question of how badly they havent lost. That remains to be seen. But what they have managed to do is limit as far as possbible the damage to their interests and dumped the thing firmly in the wests lap and tell them they now have full responsibility for their ill conceived child. Russia will be staying out of it as things stand at the minute.

Its looking more and more like this offensive in the east was a western conceived attempt to draw them into a swamp and slowly bleed them, keep them bogged down and entangled while portrayed as aggressors, compared to Hitler. And thats a massive failure from the looks of it. What seems certain is the current regime and its allies will bring nothing but ruination on ukraine.

Ive just watched footage there of civilians capturing yet another APC in Maruipol and towing it into the town centre as part of their victory over fascism celebrations. Despite the overwhelming force arrayed against them their morale seems as high as ever. I fail to see how these people can ever be reconciled to whats happening in Kiev. What that means is that its inevitable the junta and also the west will have to rebuild their relationship with Russia , go cap in hand to them and seek to have them act as persuaders for peace, to invite them in in a political and diplomatic sense. Either that or they could be faced with the task of an open ended military occupation that doesnt seem to have any effect on the level of opposition to them.

Lets face it, if Kiev was so sure only a minority supported federalisation theyd happily permit a referendum in order to settle that once and for all. But to send tanks in and risk a Russian invasion means theyre petrified of their own people. And desperate for their position to be solidified by western military bolstering. I therefore dont believe the current status quo has a hope of surviving. Particularly now that Russias actions appear to firmly rule out intervention.

 

[seventh bullet]

Well that's the same theory I've had all along. Putin is a Eurasianist and the Kremlin foreign policy is very Eurasionist, but the Putin ideology is very different from the Limonov, Dugin or this Barkashov who advocate the restoration of the USSR, Russian empire, or Russian ultranationalism. These groups are a direct threat to Putin's power, so it would only seem logical that the Kremlin would be reluctant in giving these groups any more than verbal recognition. However, it seems that the Ukrainian ultranationalists in Kiev seem to be going to extraordinary lengths to create a Kremlin-East connection, which can be either argued is a justifiable accusation, or needed to justify the crack down, or intentional to gain power. Personally I'm sticking with the later that this is intentional on the part of Kiev based ulranationalist groups.

Yes, I think there is a conflation of different 'Eurasianisms.' On the current Russian government, what do you make of the new economic union further linking Russia with post-Soviet members of the CIS? Something similar was seriously proposed by the Kazakhs in the mid-1990s, wasn't it? Any info on the what I assume is the Moscow and Astana-funded project of promoting it? There are plenty of students belonging to various groups (Young Eurasia etc) in these countries who have been parading the new purple flag and emblem of the EU.

 

[Casually Red]

Thousands of people are going to ukrainian army recruitment centres. Can't get the link on my phone.

oddly enough that sort of thing tends to happen when you bring back compulsory military conscription.

 

[frogwoman]

Eastern-Odyssey I'm a bit wary of calling the Kiev regime a 'fascist state' it seems to me they can't control large parts of the territory, while fascists are certainly involved it seems to me that its almost more reminiscent of tahe governments taking part in certain African civil wars ie very brutal but unstable, heavily dominated by the military and completely unable to control large parts of the territory, with the military/militias playing a heavy part. I could be completely wrong here but the Kiev governments actions seem to me to be more a sign of weakness rather than strength, with them making statements along the lines of them being 'helpless' to control separatists etc.

I could be wrong here but that's the impression that I get.

 

[DairyQueen]

Nonetheless, my overall point, was to point out how Brzinzkyie's theory that Russia, after the lose of Ukraine would be pushed into conflict with China in Central Asia. Brzinzkyie never predicted the annexation of Crimea, or a possible civil war, but I think US foreign policy has and is becoming increasingly more aggressive over the past two decades. Listen to Brzinzkyie he even calls for de-escalation:

I think that is very far fetched given recent events. America have made it clear that its alliances in Europe are to contain Russia and its policies in Asia are to contain China. If anything the opposite will happen. Russian-Chinese co-operation is likely to increase beyond anything planned in the last few years. Not sure a few extra gas reserves in Kazakhstan will change the geopolitical realities. Whether the people in these countries would get behind such a movement (e.g., some kind of anti-Western bloc remains to be seen). So far, American and European foreign policy may convince people that such realities are necessary. I am not convinced America can convince Russians that Putin is the real enemy of the Russian people when Russians are dying in Ukraine.

 

[DairyQueen]

Eastern-Odyssey I'm a bit wary of calling the Kiev regime a 'fascist state' it seems to me they can't control large parts of the territory, while fascists are certainly involved it seems to me that its almost more reminiscent of tahe governments taking part in certain African civil wars ie very brutal but unstable, heavily dominated by the military and completely unable to control large parts of the territory, with the military/militias playing a heavy part. I could be completely wrong here but the Kiev governments actions seem to me to be more a sign of weakness rather than strength, with them making statements along the lines of them being 'helpless' to control separatists etc.

I could be wrong here but that's the impression that I get.

To me, it does appear like the old Great Powers alliances of the early 20th century, with a multitude of competing national interests colliding. While there are some left-wing movements, I have yet to find a proper anti-war movement (most seem to be anti-Russian). The western leftists tend to be supportive of western Ukraine, western national interests and disapprove of Putin, while the Russian leftists tend to be a bit more cynical of these interests. In many respects, it does appear like the old schisms that occurred during world war one.

 

[frogwoman]

To me, it does appear like the old Great Powers alliances of the early 20th century, with a multitude of competing national interests colliding. While there are some left-wing movements, I have yet to find a proper anti-war movement (most seem to be anti-Russian). The western leftists tend to be supportive of western Ukraine, western national interests and disapprove of Putin, while the Russian leftists tend to be a bit more cynical of these interests. In many respects, it does appear like the old schisms that occurred during world war one.

Very difficult not to be forced to take sides in a civil war though, on either side. Can anyone here say they'd definitely not do the same thing?

 

[butchersapron]

Still on the lookout for news of workers action/views etc:

Miners are ready to organize a guerrilla movement against terrorists

Donbass miners Say They are Willing to Take up arms and Fight with the Terrorists. Said this Today at A Press Conference in "Commander in Chief" Miner mine "Russia" SE "Selidovugol" Alexander Gurov of Novogrodovka, WHO WAS among the Trapped miners Donetsk separatists and deputies.

"If the Government can not protect the people, it must be Given the tools to the Public. We are Ready to defend ourselves, "- he Said.

On the question of whether the miners are ready to organize a guerrilla movement, Gurov said, "Yes, the guerrilla movement, if there is no other way."

Recall May 4 Novogrodovka Captured militants six people. Among Them Were four miners WHO Were Beaten and Tortured .

Anyone know anything about Gurov? Couple of the miners were on this liberal ukranian politics show (in russian i believe) here. The main one talking is the one who claims to have had his ukranian tattoo burned/cut off with a broken light bulb by the people holding him.

Not heard a single thing about the arms workers in the area - i think their work is pretty interdependent with the russian state, so they may not be as fearful as the miners and metal workers about russian takeover costing them their work. But, who knows. Info needed.

 

[frogwoman]

butchersapron did you see this site with interviews with anarchists in Donbass and lugansk?

Http://avtonom.org

 

[scalyboy]

I could be wrong but I reckon Putin is playing quite a canny game here, certainly more politically astute than Kerry or Hague . By advising the Eastern separatists not to hold the referendum, if they go ahead and do so anyway, it will then demonstrate that he has no control over them and that sanctions against Russia are unwarranted, as well as appearing statesmanlike.

Could be he is looking towards negotiations with the West after the June elections, to achieve a federalised Ukraine with much greater autonomy for the regions, and a neutral foreign policy? And to be honest if the alternative is a continuation of the horrible Odessa and Mariepol mass killings, and eventually an all-out civil war, would this be a bad thing?

 

[butchersapron]

butchersapron did you see this site with interviews with anarchists in Donbass and lugansk?

Http://avtonom.org

Yep, i linked to stuff from it yesterday!

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Haven't had the time to keep up with the thread this past week or so, nor the Ukraine situation in general. Any chance of a brief update on the important stuff I won't be hearing on the BBC/Sky etc?

 

[DairyQueen]

Still on the lookout for news of workers action/views etc:

Miners are ready to organize a guerrilla movement against terrorists

So a bunch of miners are going to create a guerrilla movement? I am sure that class solidarity, a pluralist/inclusive society, and community ownership will be at the forefront of their demands. With the tattoo thing, is this just going to be a bunch of Ukrainian miners attacking a bunch of Russian ones?

 

[frogwoman]

So a bunch of miners are going to create a guerrilla movement? I am sure that class solidarity, a pluralist/inclusive society, and community ownership will be at the forefront of their demands. With the tattoo thing, is this just going to be a bunch of Ukrainian miners attacking a bunch of Russian ones?

Indeed

 

[classicdish]

why have they incinerated that building in Maruipol with all those cops inside then

I posted that last Monday (5th May) - it is now Saturday (10th May). Things have escalated since then, but they still haven't started using bombs or artillery for example, and only one or two helicopter attacks reported afaics. The Kiev government still seems reluctant to go 'all out'.

I don't know how many police there were inside that building, how they were killed or why exactly. There are conflicting reports.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's going to be harder for Putin to contain domestic opinion the more these killings of civilians continue; there will surely be a call for action in Russia to protect those in East Ukraine.

No doubt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

how about the very obvious fact that a referenda on independence or federalisation would provide a much more definitive causus belli than an election result which does no such thing . And Putin is publicly calling on them to put the referenda on ice, which would have the practical effect of stalling it and depriving it of much needed political momentum and giving a strong indication the Kremlin wont be recognising the results of it. While simultaneously stating that they are going to recognise the results of the elections, and therefore a Kiev governments legitimacy which is a massive u turn .
Its also pretty obvious that an invasion would stand the best chance of success in an atmosphere of chaos, while Russia is pressing for marked de escalation . Russia isnt even bringing the junta and its supporters atrocities to the UNSC, in an attempt to calm the situation and tensions down .

and youre presenting all this as more evidence of impending invasion . If Russia wants to know which areas it wants to invade it certainly doesnt need a fucking Ukrainian election to tell them that . They only need turn on their own tvs and see the areas now beseiged with tanks and military attack helicopters after definitively rejecting Kiev rule.

It also seems to me the massive deployment of armed force against a civilian population may well be a western backed ploy to actually drag Russia in there and bog it down, and to assist greatly in its international isolation . There seems to be a pretty obvious Russian reluctance to get sucked into what may well be another pre prepared trap for it .

From what I can see Russia has adopted a position towards the west of..right, youve absolutely fucked Ukraine. Its completely broken , completely fucked. Tanks are in the streets facing down civilian protestors and its going into complete economic meltdown. Youre welcome to it now . Its your baby, now take it and all the responsibility that goes with it.

You don't really read the posts you're purportedly replying to, do you?

 

[classicdish]

Casually Red

Re. Odessa

I've seen post claims that the 'pregnant woman' photo is fake, or at least there is no record of any pregnant victims. I can't hear your 'screaming' on the video you posted and in any case I doubt you'd hear much in that chaos from outside the building if the crime happened four floors up.

A lot of the supposed forensic analysis of the dead bodies inside seems really tenuous and I will wait until I hear these things from a source such as an actual forensic or fire department rather than politically motivated conspiracy sites or similar. There has also been confliciting evidence from witnesses/survivors.

Your claim that that the police in red armbands were pro-Kiev isn't proven. It could equally well be that they were either pro-Russian and/or sitting on the fence and not wanting to intervene against either side much.

The fact is that extremists on *both* sides have a vested interest in increasing the violence levels and probably are quite happy to see less extreme members of their supposed 'own side' get hurt and killed if this leads to the result they want.

 

[classicdish]

these same helicopters have been regularly ferrying right sector units into these areas...

Evidence please?

 

[classicdish]

heres the crowds reaction when their newly appointed junta governor took the opportunity to extend the regimes rehabilitation of nazism even further during the victory day, by calling Adolf Hitler a liberator

He did not call Hitler a liberator. He said that Hitler used the *excuse* or *pretext* of being a libertor.

You got this misinformation straight from RT, which is being dishonest in its translation of the speech.

 

[pocketscience]

Casually Red

Re. Odessa

I've seen post claims that the 'pregnant woman' photo is fake, or at least there is no record of any pregnant victims. I can't hear your 'screaming' on the video you posted and in any case I doubt you'd hear much in that chaos from outside the building if the crime happened four floors up.

A lot of the supposed forensic analysis of the dead bodies inside seems really tenuous and I will wait until I hear these things from a source such as an actual forensic or fire department rather than politically motivated conspiracy sites or similar. There has also been confliciting evidence from witnesses/survivors.

Your claim that that the police in red armbands were pro-Kiev isn't proven. It could equally well be that they were either pro-Russian and/or sitting on the fence and not wanting to intervene against either side much.

The fact is that extremists on *both* sides have a vested interest in increasing the violence levels and probably are quite happy to see less extreme members of their supposed 'own side' get hurt and killed if this leads to the result they want.

I can't imagine the photo of the pregnant woman being staged. Why would anyone do that?
What's clear is that the fat bloke weraing the Ukrainian flag, shooting at people in the building was mates with the old bill:
Watch from 16:20

now watch this:


He obviously needs to explain himself and questions need to be asked why 67 people who were in the building were detained whilst fat bloke went scott free. Somehow I doubt it'll ever happen though.
Here's some explaination:
http://ukraine-human-rights.org/was-the-massacre-in-odessa-planned-by-the-ukrainian-government/
This kind of evidence may explain why certain police stations are being squatted by the resistance.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I can't imagine the photo of the pregnant woman being staged. Why would anyone do that?

To provoke outrage and cries for revenge. To stoke the fires of Civil War. Maybe.

 

[classicdish]

I can't imagine the photo of the pregnant woman being staged. Why would anyone do that?

Because "nazis" etc.

(edit: the other explanation offered by a doctor looking at the photo is that it is in fact an old and fairly rotund woman not pregnant woman. In any case apparently there has been no pregnant victim turn up in Odessa and noone has claimed an actual identity for the victim, although I am willing to look at any evidence anyone finds of course)

Here's some explaination:
http://ukraine-human-rights.org/was-the-massacre-in-odessa-planned-by-the-ukrainian-government/

That is incoherent (maybe very badly translated), innaccurate (describing events) and passes several assertions off as facts (for example how does anyone know who was on the other end of the phone, if anyone at all?).
I wouldn't be surprised if the Odessa police (or various elements within it) ended up cooperating with both sets of extremists that day because they didn't want to take sides / get hurt / were bribed even? For example at one point letting (extremist) pro-russians attack the Maiden marchers, later on they let (extremist) Right Sector attack the building. And in both cases the less extreme people on both sides being the real victims - killed by gunshots in the initial stage and then trapped in the building at the later stage. The police also released prisoners at various different stages after the attacks (and allegedly before as well).

Why? The police don't get hurt at all. Maybe some even get paid? At any rate they avoid having to take any real action at least until it is far too late.
The Right Sector get to ramp up violence in the country meaning they get stronger, because that is their method for gaining political power.
The extreme pro-russian side also see support for their position increase either in a 'support of regions for federalism' sense or even in 'will drag Russia in' sense.

Who loses out? The hapless victims in the wrong place at the wrong time and anyone in the centre politically and/or who is hoping to de-escalate things and find a peaceful political solution.

 

[pocketscience]

To provoke outrage and cries for revenge. To stoke the fires of Civil War. Maybe.

Have you seen the photo in question? It was released with all the others hours after the fire was put out.
Besides, there's enough other irrefutable evidence to to provoke outrage or are you suggesting it was all staged?