Ukraine
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Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
the cluster fuck continues.
How long can the media keep up the pretence that this is all down to Putin's Machiavellian manoeuvres?
And i thought that the state shooting its own civilians was the action that stripped yanukovych's government of its legitimacy?
How long can the media keep up the pretence that this is all down to Putin's Machiavellian manoeuvres?
And i thought that the state shooting its own civilians was the action that stripped yanukovych's government of its legitimacy?
elbows
Well-Known Member
I think this is the same scene from a different vantage point (opposite side of the street):
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yeah I think he is gonna invade tbh. I'm not looking forward to the referendum on Sunday
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Until now he's given the Kiev gov enough rope to hang themselves with. I can't see that strategy changing soon unless the ukrainian army/ national guard (cough cough) go all out with massacres/ atrocities.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yeah I don't think that he will do it now, think he will leave it to after the election
elbows
Well-Known Member
So far the only western media I've seen thats managed to get well into the detail and different versions of reality surrounding the main Mariupol attack on the police station has been the independent.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...shes-hopes-of-avoiding-civil-war-9347972.html
Unfortunately it doesn't mention the other shooting stuff thats covered in the footage in this thread. But at least it tries to get into detail about the police station, unlike some really crap BBC and Guardian articles I've seen. Reading that independent article before watching or reading the BBC stuff really highlights the BBC's use of loaded terms and the language of battle. I suppose the BBC scores some points for using plenty of footage from that youtube user including the tank one I posted earlier, but the narrow narrative spoils it.
Ah Channel 4 new also managed to do their job properly:
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/bodies-fire-streets-mariupol/7755
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...shes-hopes-of-avoiding-civil-war-9347972.html
Unfortunately it doesn't mention the other shooting stuff thats covered in the footage in this thread. But at least it tries to get into detail about the police station, unlike some really crap BBC and Guardian articles I've seen. Reading that independent article before watching or reading the BBC stuff really highlights the BBC's use of loaded terms and the language of battle. I suppose the BBC scores some points for using plenty of footage from that youtube user including the tank one I posted earlier, but the narrow narrative spoils it.
Ah Channel 4 new also managed to do their job properly:
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/bodies-fire-streets-mariupol/7755
Eastern-Odyssey
Active Member
Could it be because the Independent is owned by two Russian Oligarchs.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Brzezinkis ultimate objective is to break Russia into 3 parts.
In these circumstances, Russia's first priority should be to modernize itself rather than to engage in a futile effort to regain its status as a global power. Given the country's size and diversity, a decentralized political system and free-market economics would be most likely to unleash the creative potential of the Russian people and Russia's vast natural resources. A loosely confederated Russia -- composed of a European Russia, a Siberian Republic, and a Far Eastern Republic -- would also find it easier to cultivate closer economic relations with its neighbors. Each of the confederated entitles would be able to tap its local creative potential, stifled for centuries by Moscow's heavy bureaucratic hand. In turn, a decentralized Russia would be less susceptible to imperial mobilization.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1254548/posts
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
The c4 one did too, good. Got to say I trust the BBC as much as I trust RT on this
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
hilarious stuff that . One minute theres a phalanx of riot police preventing the stooge from entering crimea and sending him into exile , very next day hes sitting in the Chief prosecutors office in the capital . Being culturally oppressed because the woman dealing with him cant speak Tatar . Unlike the fascists in Kiev
shell be sending the tanks in next
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Russias been calling the entire time for de escalation . If they had any plans to invade the fury over the Odessa massacre was the time to do it , they never even brought it to the UNSC . There have been more massacres since and still nothing . Theyve publicly called for the federalists to postpone their referendum . And here you are banging on again that the elections are just further proof of an impending Russian invasion, like a demented Fox News mouthpiece . That Russia somehow needs them to figure out which parts of Ukraine it wants to invade. That is absolutely fucking hilarious.
Its like the reds under the bed stuff from the 1950s . Demented stuff, but then again Russophobia like any other irrational hatred of entire groups of people, whether jews, muslims, blacks etc is a case of pretty monumental stupidity . And on occasions cases of monumental stupidty get greeted with smilies as opposed to rational debate on internet fora. Because there can be an understandable reluctance to get sucked into a rabbit hole of of monumental stupidity and be seen to be taking it remotely seriously .
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
how about the very obvious fact that a referenda on independence or federalisation would provide a much more definitive causus belli than an election result which does no such thing . And Putin is publicly calling on them to put the referenda on ice, which would have the practical effect of stalling it and depriving it of much needed political momentum and giving a strong indication the Kremlin wont be recognising the results of it. While simultaneously stating that they are going to recognise the results of the elections, and therefore a Kiev governments legitimacy which is a massive u turn .
Its also pretty obvious that an invasion would stand the best chance of success in an atmosphere of chaos, while Russia is pressing for marked de escalation . Russia isnt even bringing the junta and its supporters atrocities to the UNSC, in an attempt to calm the situation and tensions down .
and youre presenting all this as more evidence of impending invasion . If Russia wants to know which areas it wants to invade it certainly doesnt need a fucking Ukrainian election to tell them that . They only need turn on their own tvs and see the areas now beseiged with tanks and military attack helicopters after definitively rejecting Kiev rule.
It also seems to me the massive deployment of armed force against a civilian population may well be a western backed ploy to actually drag Russia in there and bog it down, and to assist greatly in its international isolation . There seems to be a pretty obvious Russian reluctance to get sucked into what may well be another pre prepared trap for it .
From what I can see Russia has adopted a position towards the west of..right, youve absolutely fucked Ukraine. Its completely broken , completely fucked. Tanks are in the streets facing down civilian protestors and its going into complete economic meltdown. Youre welcome to it now . Its your baby, now take it and all the responsibility that goes with it.
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
there certainly will be but I believe it will be ignored . Theres also the issue that this massive display of force and the mass killing accompanying it is being justified by the junta on the basis of an impending Russian invasion . When that doesnt transpire its the junta itself wholl have some explaining to do to their own people .
Its one thing to send troops into an area to physically suppress it . Its another thing entirely to extricate them after theyve completely alienated the local population and disgusted even those who didnt initially oppose them. As the British army found to its cost in Belfast. When it was cups of tea one day and bullets from the locals the next . Essentially the Ukrainian army today is an army of occupation on its own territory . And every day that they are there with their tanks and guns pointed at their own people is a day were resentment and hatred towards them and most particularly those who sent them there will only grow.
eta
even from within the ranks of its own forces theyve sent there
Theyve sown the seeds of their own destruction with this offensive and their pressing ahead with it and intensification of it in the face of marked Russian attempts to de escalate strikes me as very deliberate and planned provocation . When that provocation doesnt work the junta may well find itself in a very serious dilemma. Remaining in power over people that have now very deep and real cause to utterly despise them could mean having to enforce an occupation for very many years to come , at the cost of billions they simply cant afford . Theyll be the people who brought complete ruin and not an ounce of glory to Ukraine. The best Russian option may simply be to just let them at it and continue along their course of making Ukraine a completely failed state all on their own .
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TBH that's how I'm reading it at the moment. The Ukrainian 'Army' gunning down civilians can't be ignored by the Western media indefinitely.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
well the BBC are happily telling us the people slaughtered today were attacking a local police station .
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27351621
In actuality they were defending it and the officers inside from attack by the juntas armed forces.
policemen of the city department refused to obey Kiev’s orders and guard the building of the city council, which had been seized a day earlier by the Ukrainian security services. As a result, Kiev authorities decided to storm the building of the city Interior Ministry department, policemen are shooting back, the building is surrounded.”
Camouflaged people are storming the building of the city’s interior ministry department. A bus with soldiers has driven up – they are from a military unit located in the vicinity of Mariupol. Policemen who refuse to obey Kiev regime’s orders are being detained,”
Earlier, the local police refused to shoot at civilians. [Kiev] called them traitors…Today, all police officers that didn’t ask for dismissal were attempted to be ‘executed’. Heavy military equipment was pulled into the city. They used small arms and rocket grenades, tanks fired from cannons at the police HQ building. The National Guard went to war with local police”
http://rt.com/news/157884-shooting-mariupol-eastern-ukraine/
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
why ? hes said hell recognise the election results and therefore whoever emerges from them as the legitimate government of Ukraine . Which massively deprives Russia of any justification for armed intervention to protect civilians . Your hypothesis doesnt make a remote ounce of sense.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
thats the referendum Putin has publicly called on them to defer. Effectively signalling the Kremlin wont be recognising the results of it. A very odd way to go about invading somewhere.
Eastern-Odyssey
Active Member
Yes don't get me started on brzezinski his work is so precise either it's still the standard for US foreign policy, or the guy has sixth sense. Anyway I have lots of theories related to Brzezinski's geopolitics and US foreign policy, partially through ideas I picked up while doing my dissertation a few years ago on the Great Game in Central Asia, my following of Obama's Asian pivot through my interest in China and now the Ukraine crisis. Anyway you may not agree with me, but my ideas come from one massively important paragraph in "The Grand Chess Board".
Now what ever happens in Ukraine, Russia has been massively damaged as a result - it's kind of a win-win for the US. The result is going to be either a Russian invasion which will result in a draining insurgency movement funded by the West, a civil war equally draining, or Russia turning a blind eye will not only result in a loss of national support for Putin, but also will just be as damaging with a newly ultranationalist pro-EU state on their border. Currently despite the sanctions not having much affect, the biggest damage has been a result of the loss of Russian industry connection in Eastern Ukraine and strategic buffer against NATO expansion.
Nonetheless, as a result it would be in Russia's nationalist interest to protect it's pro-Russian near abroads Belarus, which has already attempted to be swayed by Western influence and countries in Central Asia mainly controlled by old Soviet dictators who currently despite being more pro-Russian are equally supportive of Chinese and US interests. The problem rests on China which the US is currently restricting it's access to trade and oil routes. The recent Obama trip highlighted this military aid to Malaysia - protect the Straits of Malaca, Increased influence in Burma - new Chinese oil pipeline, New military bases in the Philippines - protect the Spratly Islands, and agreeing to Japan's island sovereignty. On top of that most US military strategists are quite open about their military strategy in relation to China, e.g a naval blockade, cutting trade routes and Air-Sea battle. The problem the US has with it's pivot, or let's say "containment" of China, is cutting the northern trade routes through either Central Asia, or Southern Russia. For this reason being able to manufacture either a direct conflict, or increased tension between China and Russia would not only destabilize both up-and-coming superpowers, but would also enable the US to clear up it's one strategic problem in it's Asia pivot.
What I also find interesting is Brzeziski always mentioned Ukraine as being a pivot, but never poland:
I noticed Stratfor refers to Poland as a pivot, not to sure how long that's been going on for now and why? according to them it's been years so I wonder when and why the pivot moved from Ukraine to Poland. As for the other two pivots mentioned by Stratfor, Azerbaijan was considered a pivot by Brzezinski due to it's geostrategic importance in controlling Caspian energy, while Oman's a new one but taking into account the instability in the Middle East it's not to hard to work out how Oman became a Middle Eastern pivot along with Turkey and Iran.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
no they were definitely firing rockets at people on the ground as can clearly be seen from about 1 30 onwards in this footage
what next , the tanks are just there in case they have to extricate police cars from a muddy field, not incinerate policemen for refusing to massacre the locals ? the artillerys probably just there to provide a handy washing line or two ?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
except what he doesnt forecast is Russia firmly securing its Black Sea fleet for seemingly perpetuity. And what seems to be quite forseeable is the ultranationalist camp , who failed to secure victory in previous elections and had to resort to a coup, coming a major cropper in the near future. Because its they who are going to be drained in eastern ukraine and almost certainly not the Russians, who seem to have foresaw a Brzinzkiesque provocation and trap in the making and majorly backed off .
Whats going to be left in Ukraine is a highly polarised population ,massive internal destabilisation, population centres in open revolt and under a military occupation that may well be very long lasting, and whatever resources and industry they possess ravaged by the IMF and EU preconditions and practices. In other words a massive and very expensive mess that Russia has opted to dump very firmly in the wests lap. Russia is also highly unlikely to continue propping Ukraine up economically any further.
On the diplomatic front Russia is now in line with the OSCE, while the junta are rejecting the OSCE proposals.
simply put its forseeable there mightnt be much of any kind of a state in Ukraine in the future, bar a failed one of the wests making .
I also think Putin has done enough as regards Crimea to secure his popularity and deflect any serious internal criticism or rebuke. The same certainly cannot be said of the crew now in power in Kiev who could well soon became international as well as local pariahs. Even Yanukovic never sent tanks and gunships against his own people and look what happened his credibility. This lot are doing that while simultaneously charging into economic ruin and mass enforced austerity. I also saw footage today of Nuland being grilled by republican senators over her support for neo nazis in Kiev, an issue that seems to be gaining traction over there. They took absolutely no nonsense from her despite her attempts to sidestep the issue.
http://larouchepac.com/node/30736
so yeah, the west have secured a victory of sorts in Ukraine but it could turn out to be a very hollow one . While Putin has secured a very real win as regards Crimea as well as avoiding an apparent trap were it would be bogged down Ukraine while subjected to international isolation and economic warfare . Its the west and its puppets who look more likely to come out of this as deeply discreditted and in a complte mess, not Russia .
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Oh no... am I being found insufficiently contributive in the great struggle against Adolf Putin!?
Ffs. Smileys are just so much more efficient in light of the above.
it was quite obvious you were referring to Putins approval of the Ukrainian elections, not yer mans approval.
then he says something about engaging brain
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
[QUOTE="
Nothing says fascism more than a "politician" talking to a beaten tortured semi naked man. Good old Lyashko, no matter how many naked men you beat up the gay rumours well never fully go away.
Anyway I posted about these guy earlier, I think it's safe to say that Чорні чоловічки (Black men) are just a new unit of Right Sector funded by the army. Remember the armies divided between nationalists and pro-Russian so it's only obvious these guys are going in doing the heavy working and the gear can only come from the Ukraine army. Any way they have a web page (note the armband is Patriots of Ukraine) http://vk.com/blackmens and then their is this message hunting for the cossacks on Patriots of Ukraine home page.
http://snaua.info/chorni-cholovichki-ogoloshuyut-polyuvannya-na-zelenih-vorogiv/.
Lyashkos facebook page states the order has been given that therell be no prisoners taken in the assault on the recalcitrant cops beseiged in their base. Looks like he was giving that order himself and was as good as his word.
Eastern-Odyssey
Active Member
Oh definitely Putin won in regards to Crimea, the Black Sea fleet is far to important to loose. However, I think that's was kind of expected and I wouldn't be fooled into believing that the West didn't expect an annexation. Personally I think Brzinzkyie expected the West to gain greater influence in the region 15 years ago something similar to the Balkans or Poland. That clearly never happened, if you read some of the WikiLeaks cables on Crimea the US acknowledged that Russian propaganda was far stronger than Western propaganda, so I don't think they could ever hope to control Crimea even if they wanted to. That's one reason I thought it was of interest to highlight Stratfor's reference to Poland as being the Pivot, not only because since Brzinzkyie writing it's integrated enough to be classed as a pivot, but also it's as if Ukraine has been left to the Wolf's and expected loss in US geostrategy.
Nonetheless, my overall point, was to point out how Brzinzkyie's theory that Russia, after the lose of Ukraine would be pushed into conflict with China in Central Asia. Brzinzkyie never predicted the annexation of Crimea, or a possible civil war, but I think US foreign policy has and is becoming increasingly more aggressive over the past two decades. Listen to Brzinzkyie he even calls for de-escalation:
Eastern-Odyssey
Active Member
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I dont see what was wrong with them. Most of them appeared to be people in a peaceful tent protest who have a bit of a problem with their government being violently overthrown ,and people who can best be described as often animalistic now exercising executive power who are openly gloating over what happened. According to survivors some of them were even just people on their way home from work who went in there to avoid the trouble on the streets . They seem to have been forced to take refuge in that building after a mob of fascist animals went on the rampage in their city . And when I say animals I mean absolute fucking animals.
Ive seen one very distressing picture of a heavily pregnant woman who was highly unlikely to have been involved in any violence sprawled over a table very dead, and clearly strangled to death by an electric flex which was still wrapped round her neck, looked about 8 months pregnant. I think she was just a cleaner, not even a protestor. Im not going to post the picture , or any others but theyre easily found . I will however post this video taken from outside the office she was murdered in, and what appears to be her screaming for help during the attack can plainly be heard from 20 seconds in .
.
that was no fucking accident .
And neither was the rest of it. Ive saw video footage of people who leapt from windows and badly injured on the ground being literally beaten to death were they lay, properly finished off by being repeatedly struck on the head by a metal bar while very seriously injured. That was no accident either.
warning, this is pretty disturbing to watch. I wouldnt be posting it were it not for this accident nonsense.
Ive seen a photo of another female victim who looks very much to have been raped prior to her murder, naked from the waist down, legs splayed and then upper body apparently doused in a flammable liquid post mortem . Others who were definitely executed by being shot in the head. Bodies of others who were obviously killed elsewhere dragged to the spots were they were found , because the tracks in the soot are clearly visible, as are pools of blood that are clearly visible next to partially charred corpses that obviously didnt die from either smoke inhalation or fire . Office doors were boot marks of those who killed the inhabitants are clearly visible .That was a deliberate massacre in that building and not a fucking accident in the slightest .
Personally while im not surprised in the slightest by the gloating of the junta and its supporters what I find particularly nauseating is the western medias line that this was an awful accident, that somehow a building just caught fire as if by magic . And the clear and irrefutable evidence thats easily found that many of these people were deliberately butchered and murdered by means other than fire and smoke both inside that building and right outside of it after leaping from windows. People, such as a heavily pregnant woman, who plainly werent involved in any mayhem.
How anyone could even remotely describe what happened there as an accident while keeping a straight face simply beggars belief .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
The first shots were certainly fired by people purporting to be pro Russians. But why they were clearly wearing red identification armbands and moving seamlessly in and out of the pro kiev police lines while doing it is more than a bit odd. As is the fact the pro kiev police are most definitely wearing the very same red identification bands on their arms as the shooters were . And openly co operating the people doing the shooting. Their police cheif as well is clearly seen co operating with shooters, and the cops make zero attempt to stop them.
this all looks very murky indeed
heres the fascists moving into the rear of the building obviously to carry out the dirty work on the inside. Note the guy at around 2 20 also wears a similar red identification band around his wrist. and later at 3 30 a number of others are clearly seen with them standing around the entrance to the back door. The police cheif who was plainly up to his bollocks with the previous red armbanded shooters is also in attendance during all of this.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
But hes calling for de escalation now while Russia have seemingly yet again wrongfooted the west by themselves descalating and taking the diplomatic route with the OSCE as opposed to the military one. Leaving NATO as the ones engaged in a military build up while inextricably aligned to an increasingly basket case regime full of nazis whove sent the tanks out against the people . The western powers, particularly the US seem to have painted themselves into a tricky corner here with their agressive line and persuit of short sighted victory at all costs. The call for western de escalation comes as its apparent Putin hasnt taken the bait and blundered in with guns blazing as was expected .
And worse still seems to have cemented an even firmer relationship with China as opposed to becoming in conflict with it as was expected.
http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2604091&Itemid=1
The US has spun such a massive lie here and been so aggressive in its support for allies who are plainly unfit for office and being exposed as such that they risk serious loss of face in Europe. The state Ukraine is in now and the pedigree of the ruling regime will soon make it a pariah internationally as their madness unfolds . The junta launched its first mass offensive when the head of the CIA was in Kiev. They relaunched it when Biden came to meet them . It hasnt even remotely dampened the enthusiasm of th federalists for revolt, only fanned the flames further . Leaving no options open to them except either further repression or concessions to people who will be even more bolstered politically than they were a month ago by the support the mass repression and over the top militarism accrues for them .
With right sector and similar scum armed, empowered and in the feild massacres and atrocities are inevitable. Without deescalation its the US that will be firmly implicated in those atrocities and forced to defend the indefensible, right on Europes doorstep.
