Ukraine

[frogwoman]

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...o-districts-due-to-aggravated-situation-4213/

 

[DotCommunist]

You'd kind of hope that would make things a little easier for the Jewish minority since whichever side starts something, that provides ammunition for the other side.

Maybe it won't pan out like that but it's nice to dream...

optimistic- the flip side is one sides far rightists can carry out attacks and blame the others lot.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah what I mean it that I haven't really seen many concrete reports or real attempts to find out what was going on re: antisemitism in Ukraine, what I have seen is both sides saying the other side is antisemitic and they're not, so for example right sector members cleaning up graffiti is proof they aren't antisemites and the evil Russians are. There is a political culture of antisemitism to some extent in both countries and for example both sides have been guilty but the thing is its a big propaganda weapon there if you are trying to prove that the other side are 'Nazis"

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ould-split-ukraine-in-two-begins-9350645.html

 

[DairyQueen]

Anyone notice this? A counter-referendum?

Seven village councils, as well as the districts of Dobropillia Raion and Krasnoarmiisk Raion in Donetsk Oblast requested that they be seceded to the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast.[29] Dnipropetrovsk governor Ihor Kolomoisky announced that local referendums would take place to allow for his province to administer and provide service to cities in Donetsk and Luhansk which wish to secede.[30] A vote on joining Dnipropetrovsk is scheduled for 11 May to coincide with the secessionist referendum.[31][32]
The referendum was titled "The Referendum for Peace, Order, and Unity." Taking part in the referendum were Debalcevo, Yenakievo, Yasinovataya, Avdeyevka, Volnovakha, Novoazovsk, and Mariupol. Ballot boxes were mobile and polling stations were claimed to be available in all areas under control of the Ukrainian military or law enforcement

So I presume the OSCE will come down pretty hard on Ukraine for staging their own referendum in a climate of fear, violence and lawlessness?

 

[frogwoman]

Bloody hell

 

[butchersapron]

Any towns or regions in russia been offered the opportunity to hold their own referendums i wonder?

 

[frogwoman]

Any towns or regions in russia been offered the opportunity to hold their own referendums i wonder?

When's Chechnya's referendum?

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6e21652a-d8f5-11e3-837f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz31PfuLPLS

This is interesting butchersapron

Metinvest, a steel group owned by Ukraine’s richest man, Rinat Akhmetov, which operates Mariupol’s two mills, urged Kiev’s pro-western government on Saturday to halt its security crackdown.

“The events in Mariupol have once again shown that it is predominately the civilian population that suffers when . . . clashes occur in regions where peaceful people work and live,” the company said in a statement.

“Further military operations on the territory of Donbass will result in the majority of residents losing trust and respect for the authorities,” it added.

Ukraine referendum poster

In a briefing on Sunday, Ukraine’s presidential administration chief expressed “surprise”at Metinvest’s statement as signs emerged of a widening rift between Kiev’s pro-western government and Mr Akhmetov, who holds large business interests and influence in the Donetsk region.

 

[butchersapron]

He's thinking about his money. The miners in the mines he owns are too. The ones he owns on the russian side are the only ones left open and making a profit after recent years rationalisation - i reckon he'd be happy to be able to do that under russian protection on the other side as well.

 

[DairyQueen]

Any towns or regions in russia been offered the opportunity to hold their own referendums i wonder?

Considering opinion in Russia is staunchly opposed to the Ukrainian authorities, I doubt many would want to secede now. A couple republics in the Caucasus Mountains might favour separation, but even there public opinion may have 'shifted' since the late 1990s. America's actions in this crisis may have reinforced tolerances for authoritarianism (the perception that fragmentation, particularly on anti-Russian terms, will mean you'll go the way of Ukraine).

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have seen people claiming that in fact 150 people were burnt to death in Odessa (apparently in the basement) and then their remains 'disappeared'.
Today an RT stringer (ie someone who a lot of people believe) is claiming 100 people were shot in Mariupol yesterday.

The truth is already bad enough without indulging a load of invented bullshit, which means I want to see actual decent evidence, believable witnesses, coherent analysis - not a load of horseshit.

But...but...RT's reporting is impeccable and unbiased, isn't it?

 

[Mikey77]

But...but...RT's reporting is impeccable and unbiased, isn't it?

I haven't watched RT for a while but I seem to remember programmes like Cross Talk allowing for a more varied array of opinion that the equivalent on British channels. The lack of coverage from British news outlets on CIA involvement, murders of pro-Russians etc. makes criticism of Putin and the "lack of a free press" in Russia ridiculous. What's free about the western press when they are all behind toppling foreign governments for one reason or another?

 

[DairyQueen]

But...but...RT's reporting is impeccable and unbiased, isn't it?

Here's the thing, I can understand the interests, and those who represent them in Ukraine, that Russia are advancing. For better or worse, they have extensive historical and economic ties to the region, which are more-or-less embodied with some oligarchs. When I read an RT report, I can understand the context.

What interests are NATO and specifically the British advancing through their media outlets exactly? Those of the 'people of Ukraine'? We are bankrolling a hodge-podge of out-and-out National Front-style fascists, right-wing hawkish oligarchs (we (the public) do not really know who they are exactly, just that they aren't Putin's boys and girls), and crypto-fascist (possibly fascist) representatives of a middle-class that wants to get tied into Europe and a military alliance.

When I read a report in the west, and particularly the BBC, I have no context. It looks like a mixture of rehashed anti-Putin propaganda or the innane ramblings of a public school boy visiting the east of Ukraine for the first time.

 

[frogwoman]

Here's the thing, I can understand the interests, and those who represent them in Ukraine, that Russia are advancing. For better or worse, they have extensive historical and economic ties to the region, which are more-or-less embodied with some oligarchs. When I read an RT report, I can understand the context.

What interests are NATO and specifically the British advancing through their media outlets exactly? Those of the 'people of Ukraine'? We are bankrolling a hodge-podge of out-and-out National Front-style fascists, right-wing hawkish oligarchs (we (the public) do not really know who they are exactly, just that they aren't Putin's boys and girls), and crypto-fascist (possibly fascist) representatives of a middle-class that wants to get tied into Europe and a military alliance.

When I read a report in the west, and particularly the BBC, I have no context. It looks like a mixture of rehashed anti-Putin propaganda or the innane ramblings of a public school boy visiting the east of Ukraine for the first time.

I don't trust the BBC any more than I trust Russia today tbh

 

[butchersapron]

I do. By some distance.

 

[Belushi]

I was thinking of doing a Morgan Spurlock style experiment and only watch RT for a year to see how my world view changed, then I realised Casually Red had beaten me to it

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven't watched RT for a while but I seem to remember programmes like Cross Talk allowing for a more varied array of opinion that the equivalent on British channels. The lack of coverage from British news outlets on CIA involvement, murders of pro-Russians etc. makes criticism of Putin and the "lack of a free press" in Russia ridiculous. What's free about the western press when they are all behind toppling foreign governments for one reason or another?

"You cannot hope to bribe or twist (thank God!) the British journalist. But, seeing what the man will do unbribed, there's no occasion to."

it's a free press because you don't need to pay them to report what you want

 

[Coolfonz]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6e21652a-d8f5-11e3-837f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz31PfuLPLS

This is interesting butchersapron

Ukraine referendum poster

Take away the map/writing and that is basically how I see the world.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I was thinking of doing a Morgan Spurlock style experiment and only watch RT for a year to see how my world view changed, then I realised Casually Red had beaten me to it

His innards have all turned to Solyanka.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

J Ed Serbian fash too, look at this

'Crimea is Ukraine, Kosovo is Serbia'

Looks like about 20 people showed up.

 

[DairyQueen]

"You cannot hope to bribe or twist (thank God!) the British journalist. But, seeing what the man will do unbribed, there's no occasion to."

it's a free press because you don't need to pay them to report what you want

The BBC is as bad as RT. None of the stories on anything important display the facts in a demonstrably objective way, all are highly slanted toward one world view and there are a great deal of taboo issues they just won't report on. If the journalists who work for these organisations do not realise they are biased they are just stupid as well as biased.

As for bribery/corruption. How much does Peston/Marr/etc earn (do they need bribes?) and what do these people do after the leave the BBC? Stephanie Flanders went to work in Morgan Stanley after reporting on it, I am sure she got the job because of her invaluable critical perspectives on financial economics in a Morgan Stanley's Maoist-style self-reflection realignment. They are either corrupt or lazy journalists, either way I can't imagine they are much different from their Russian equivelants (true, there are some investigative journalists that get arrested/beaten there, here they would just be unemployable).

 

[Coolfonz]

The BBC and RT aren't comparable. The BBC World Service like RT? Don't think so. RT may show some interesting things now and then but it's buried beneath a less than subtle editorial bias. I'm sure Fox News also unearth some interesting facts now and then but the same applies...

 

[DotCommunist]

I fucking love RT it gives me the old delusion of relevance thing. I'm a secret fifth columnist! yeah.

 

[pocketscience]

So either Yatsenuik is totally insane or a lying fascist?

Probably both but, given the benifit of doubt, delusional at best I'd say. The quality of US puppeteering has certainly gone down hill in recent years. I think fatigue's setting in.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...d-symbolic-moscow-polling-station/499916.html

As Moscow voters lined up proudly under the flags of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, they did not yet realize that their ballots would not count toward the referendums' final outcome.

The official website of the Donetsk People's Republic announced earlier that a polling station would be set up in Moscow. But Donetsk Central Election Commission head Roman Lyagin said on Sunday that none of the polling stations established outside of the region had been coordinated with the self-proclaimed authorities.

 

[frogwoman]

DairyQueen I tried to PM you some stuff about Gagauzia but it wouldn't let me for some reason.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

Military opening fire on more civilians.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I haven't watched RT for a while but I seem to remember programmes like Cross Talk allowing for a more varied array of opinion that the equivalent on British channels. The lack of coverage from British news outlets on CIA involvement, murders of pro-Russians etc. makes criticism of Putin and the "lack of a free press" in Russia ridiculous. What's free about the western press when they are all behind toppling foreign governments for one reason or another?

Have a watch of this and see if you still stand by that assessment

 

[butchersapron]

The BBC is as bad as RT. None of the stories on anything important display the facts in a demonstrably objective way, all are highly slanted toward one world view and there are a great deal of taboo issues they just won't report on. If the journalists who work for these organisations do not realise they are biased they are just stupid as well as biased.

As for bribery/corruption. How much does Peston/Marr/etc earn (do they need bribes?) and what do these people do after the leave the BBC? Stephanie Flanders went to work in Morgan Stanley after reporting on it, I am sure she got the job because of her invaluable critical perspectives on financial economics in a Morgan Stanley's Maoist-style self-reflection realignment. They are either corrupt or lazy journalists, either way I can't imagine they are much different from their Russian equivelants (true, there are some investigative journalists that get arrested/beaten there, here they would just be unemployable).

The BBC is forced by its range to be a battle of opinions in its news reporting - an ongoing class war (one witin limited windows and that we never win). RT isn't. It's people selected for their skill at tailoring news to fit the states agenda. It's news reporting fits one profile and one profile only. That is supported - rather than challenged - by their opinion pieces. David Dimbleby openly saying jews brought the holocaust on themselves and may bring another - BBC = out.