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Ukraine

discokermit said:
me too. the long winded patronising ones are good, as is the grovelling apology.
my favourite though is after sunny jim saw him on the ground in tears and took the opportunity to deliver the coup de grace (sneaky, i like it) with ''Boo hoo. Piss off you cockwombling drama queen fuck knuckle'' and delroy raises his hands to the sky and bellows ''sweaty dildo!'' before expiring.
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thats fuckin hilarious :D:D
 
discokermit said:
me too. the long winded patronising ones are good, as is the grovelling apology.
my favourite though is after sunny jim saw him on the ground in tears and took the opportunity to deliver the coup de grace (sneaky, i like it) with ''Boo hoo. Piss off you cockwombling drama queen fuck knuckle'' and delroy raises his hands to the sky and bellows ''sweaty dildo!'' before expiring.
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vengeance for amadeus-gate
 
anyways...the russkis have officially denied violating Ukrainian airspace at any time . Which would be par for the course anyway . Except they point out the pentagon sources making these claims to the media are anonymous . And that zero details have been provided about either times or locations, number of aircraft etc .

Those media allegations are populist in nature, they contain no information on the time and place of the incident, as well as no data on altitude, speed and the direction of aircraft, as well as no other objective parameters

But what they are saying very clearly is that if the junta doesnt call off the tanks Russia reserves the right to send its forces in to protect civilians .

http://rt.com/news/154716-churkin-ukraine-russia-usa/

I believe NATO blew Libya to pieces and removed its government recently after citing mere fears of disproportionate military force being used against protestors as opposed to verified instances . So, again, just like Kosovo before it, it would appear the western powers have already set the precedent .

I can remember a few sages openly ridiculing me on here during the Snowden siege when I was pointing out repeated western breaches of international law were going to result in some serious quid pro quos down the line. Doesnt seem so funny now.
 
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thats what people , including him, were saying when I was talking about inevitable repercussions for western fucking about. And when I said Libya will turn into a failed state. And that Syria wouldnt be rolling over to the jihadists. I wasnt wrong then despite the howls of ridicule. Dont believe Im wrong now.
 
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Casually Red said:
But what they are saying very clearly is that if the junta doesnt call off the tanks Russia reserves the right to send its forces in to protect civilians
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I doubt v much whether Putin gives a f*** about anti-Kiev Ukrainian civilians, any more than the EU/US gives a f*** about the corresponding pro-Kiev ones. It's just geopolitics innit
 
well if Putin is a Russian or Soviet nationalist then he most likely regards them as his fellow countrymen. And theyre right on his doorstep. And his support base certainly does care, so its both politically essential for him to give a fuck and quite possible he may just have a bit of concern fellow Russians arent being persecuted. I dont see why his personal feelings wouldnt be any different from the average Russians on that issue.
However Id agree with you the geo political aspect is just as important there too. I think the big difference is though Russia would be happier to see Ukraine adopt a role like Finland , neutral but neither too freindly or too hostile. Making the most of its buffer status and exploiting that to the full. That suits Russian interests fine.
While its the west whove gone hell for leather for control here, to take the place politically, economically and militarily into their camp. Basically by subversion, force and ultimatum.
And as theyve no ethnic linkage nor loyalties and their own support base dont give a toss they plainly dont care about the average Ukrainian on either side. Only geo political victory. Which they see in their grasp, hence going all out for it.

Again Id emphasise, Russia has urged compromise on this issue from day one. Its the west whove refused to countenance it . That refusal is what has us where we are today.
 
frogwoman said:
Svoboda have some governmental posts, right sector aren't in power at all
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Id disagree with that. Svoboda even have the deputy pm post. Yarosh has the post of Deputy Secretary of National Security, meaning hes number 2 in charge of the armed forces, intelligence etc. Meaning he has the power to appoint a lot of his own people wherever he wants them . The guy keeping an eye on him is Paruiby, who co founded Svoboda when it was full on neo nazi as opposed to its more moderate Golden Dawn persona today. And who is well known to keep a neo nazi entourage comprising hooligans and all sorts.

http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

Thats the power of life and death in Ukraine in the hands of nazis. And the power to found even more militia groups and have them legalised, funded and equipped by the state. To rubber stamp them yourself. The economics are left to the economists, the diplomacy to the diplomats and the killing to the fascists. To a man that immediately post coup was openly saying the next move was to cleanse Ukraine of the occupiers. That means ethnic Russians...and god knows who else.

Yarosh has moved his HQ into the east now to Dnepetrovsk, starting a new militia formation.

http://rt.com/news/154452-right-sector-yarosh-unit/

that was his mob stalking the streets there a few weeks ago



so Its not a huge leap to assume this is many of the same scrotes now being armed and trained on the outskirts of Dnepetrovsk just this week




that to me looks like a bit of power
 
scalyboy said:
Please feel free to carry on derailing, it's useful info. I for one would welcome it. And tbh anything makes a change from the rant/abuse fest that this once vital Ukraine thread has become :(
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Lots of notes from mams I think. About 100 nazis turned up and they were unable to move because several thousand people were in the way, not counting many more who I suspect would've appeared along the route. About 50 of them ended up ambling about Adlershof, a couple of train stops to the southwest, escorted by coppers. Not sure about the Sebastian Schmidtke incident. There were a fair few scuffles between coppers and antifa.
 
Casually Red said:
thats what people , including him, were saying when I was talking about inevitable repercussions for western fucking about. And when I said Libya will turn into a failed state. And that Syria wouldnt be rolling over to the jihadists. I wasnt wrong then despite the howls of ridicule. Dont believe Im wrong now.
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You weren't exactly a voice in the wilderness. I remember agreeing with you about a fair bit. But where I and many others disagreed and still disagree with you is where you take sides so firmly in situations where both sides are rotten.
 
ViolentPanda said:
It works!
My parents (both non-smokers) couldn't taste any difference in quality between it and their usual (from their local butcher in north Norfolk) "sunday breakfast" black pudding.
It's easy to make, too! Just as easy as most other sausages and salamis!
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The blackpudding they sell in the indoor market in Chesterfield (which we'd annex after secession so my mum lives in the same country as me) is the best by a mile.
 
Short piece on the potential for this to spin out of moscow and kiev's hands and the bringing of the social question in to a fight for a state without oligarchs - need facts though, need evidence of what's happening (or not) on the ground.
 
Casually Red said:
their proof essentially consists of a stocky heavily bearded guy allegedly in South Ossetia 6 years ago ...but could have been from absolutely anywhere...wearing a poorly sewn on Russian military patch who bears a passing resemblance to a stocky heavily bearded guy in Eastern Ukraine. Namely because both of them are stocky and heavily bearded...which isnt really that odd among ethnic Russians. To my eyes they definitely dont look like the same guy. The one in ossetias nose looks different to the one in east ukraine . And both bearded guys look quite over the hill and unfit to be serving in a special forces unit as an infantry unit . Id suspect military veterans in both cases.

And the junta have just stuck up a caption on their pic just claiming the group as a special forces unit. Without identifying a single one of them.

The BBC are satisfied that caption then permits them to write appears to be linked to a special forces unit, more than once.

heres another much larger pic of the bearded guy who was in the news last week. No way thats the same guy as the one allegedly in Ossetia. Its absolute bollocks, the nose is very different to the vodka ruined one in Ossetia. You can see peeking out from the front of his cap his hair was originally black, not ginger. He even looks a bit younger than he did 6 years ago.

And I suspect thats why its worth noting the junta havent released it themselves but given it to the US state department, who themselves pronounce it genuine . Always able to claim later that their Ukrainian partners may have made a genuine mistake.
And also worth noting even the BBC and CNN are pointedly not claiming the evidence is authentic in a definite disclaimer , because its laughably fake when one gets a larger pic to look at than the one on the news sites.

article-2603613-1D13DDCB00000578-217_964x680.jpg


And if one looks at the little green men in Crimea , who definitely were special forces, youll note the kit they were carrying was often a lot more specialised than these guys...silenced Val 9 sniper rifles and pp200 smgs as side arms.Kord heavy machine guns . These ones definitely arent carrying anything like that in any of the footage Ive seen. Basic AKs and the odd RPG. No fancy stuff, no expensive grips, slides or sights. Just basic militia gear. In provinces full of ex Ukrainian and Russian military, Berkut etc.
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Looks like the stocky bearded man was at a wedding and bought a new hat especially for the occasion (1.24 minutes in).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27169367
 
Casually Red said:
Yarosh has the post of Deputy Secretary of National Security, meaning hes number 2 in charge of the armed forces, intelligence etc. Meaning he has the power to appoint a lot of his own people wherever he wants them
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TIME magasine says he isn't:

"After much debate, Yarosh was offered the role of deputy head of the National Security Council, but rejected it as beneath him."
http://time.com/11005/many-ukrainians-want-russia-to-invade/

The official website lists:
Secretary Parubiy Andrey
Deputy Secretary Syumar Victoria P.
Deputy Secretary Alexander V. Litvinenko

http://www.rnbo.gov.ua/content/aparat.html (you'll need to use Google Translate or similar)

Here is the full membership of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine:
http://www.rnbo.gov.ua/content/sklad.html

...again Yarosh is not listed.
 
Casually Red said:
anyways...the russkis have officially denied violating Ukrainian airspace at any time . Which would be par for the course anyway . Except they point out the pentagon sources making these claims to the media are anonymous .
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"In a statement on Friday, Pentagon spokesman Col Steven Warren said Russian aircraft had entered Ukrainian airspace several times in the past 24 hours."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/27167187
 
ViolentPanda said:
Yet again, you appear to have failed to read what I actually wrote, in favour of going off on a "talking point" of your own.
I spoke about people, not states.

Where have I lamented American non-intervention? What I've consistently lamented is the lack of real democracy for Ukrainians.

Please post links to actual quotes where I make this lament.
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ViolentPanda said:
Interestingly, Germany and Russia were the states most opposed to a Ukrainian state. The Poles were a bit more divided about it.
Why Ukrainians would expect anything but fine words from the US, though, puzzles me. History shows us that while the US talks a good deal about Ukraine, historically they've bricked it in terms of doing anything.
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So presumably now you will be explain what more than fine words actually mean, and that ideally the USA would still have "bricked it in terms of doing anything".
 
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ViolentPanda said:
More disingenuousness. I didn't say "their subordinates", I said that to Russian elites (and anyone who wasn't a disingenuous fuck would know that I meant both the Kremlin and the capitalists), Ukraine is viewed as subordinate.
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What I am saying is that, historically, the ruling elites (you brought up Lithuania incidentally) of Ukraine and Russia were the same people, indeed the same family.
 
Just been flicking through Simon Clarke's excellent What About the Workers? Workers and the Transition to Capitalism in Russia which goes into some useful detail abut the waves of miners struggles in the donbass in 89 and 91 (not solely there of course, Vortuka and the Kuzbass too), the setting up of workers committees and taking over political functions etc out of the struggle to keep their mines open. See also his similarly excellent The Workers' Movement in Russia which covers comparable territory. Lots of other stuff on his site.
 
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