Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
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ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
they didnt. Hence the idea of post coup self rule and peoples governers vs appointed oligarch overseers becoming a lot more popular in a number of regions.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Unfortunately for Ukraine, NATO action is, IMO, most likely to be the Chamberlain/Czechoslovakia sort, combined with a spot of Habsburg-era militarisation of strategic border points. I'm not sure that disappointing the ex-Soviet states per se figures too highly, although obviously keeping a few key ex-Soviet states onside is important (yep, talking about Poland and the Baltics here).
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
It's basically Kasually Krasniy arguing, reductio ad hitlerum, with frankly astonishing stamina that the Ukraine uprising is fascist and therefore to be opposed. Also that Russian irredentism in Crimea is therefore anti fascist and to be celebrated.
Others argue, with less stamina but still impressive levels of patience, that this is a somewhat reductive view.
And that's what you missed on Glee.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
IMO the (bootleg, naturally) live recordings are better, as some of their studio output had some fairly "individualistic" production. It's all good as long as you bear in mind the studio stuff and live stuff show different facets of the same material.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
"The G7 group of economic powers has agreed to intensify sanctions on Russia over its actions in Ukraine [...] The West accuses Russia of leading a secession rebellion in Ukraine's east, months after it annexed Crimea. Moscow denies the allegations." BBC
Not sure this is a reasonable ask; what evidence is there for Russian involvement of anti-Kiev Eastern Ukraine activities? (or am I being naive). Admittedly there was the annexation of Crimea, but this current situation seems different? Yes, Russia could cease troop movements near the border, but would this necessarily have any effect on what people are doing in Eastern Ukraine? Terrible analogies I know, but it seems to me akin to holding the Jamaican govt responsible for activities of Jamaicans in the UK, or of holding the UK govt responsible for what Brits get up to in Spain.
Not sure this is a reasonable ask; what evidence is there for Russian involvement of anti-Kiev Eastern Ukraine activities? (or am I being naive). Admittedly there was the annexation of Crimea, but this current situation seems different? Yes, Russia could cease troop movements near the border, but would this necessarily have any effect on what people are doing in Eastern Ukraine? Terrible analogies I know, but it seems to me akin to holding the Jamaican govt responsible for activities of Jamaicans in the UK, or of holding the UK govt responsible for what Brits get up to in Spain.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
delroy got utterly humiliated by seventh bullet, went mad, wrote the word 'shit' in as many places on the board as he could, got banned.
it would be hilarious if it wasn't so pitiful. no, actually, it's still hilarious.
Did this happen last night? Shame, I was enjoying his posts.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Please feel free to carry on derailing, it's useful info. I for one would welcome it. And tbh anything makes a change from the rant/abuse fest that this once vital Ukraine thread has become
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
You'll be sorry once we're gone!So would the rest of the UK tbf, comrade.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Those "others" are same couple of posters who "like" your posts, I've noticed.
Have you wondered what message that sends?
A successful coup? Hyperbole. A successful coup would have seen Ukraine taken over. What they've purportedly sponsored has been (at worst) a Keystone Kops attempt at a coup, and one that didn't work.
All messages send out messages, Einstein.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
wrong. Ive argued the coup...which you call an uprising...is a western sponsored affair which uses fascist elements primarily as its physical force edge, but also to an extent as doctrinal. Its primarily a neo liberal free market and NATO affair, not exclusively fascist. And its gone way beyond any semblance of an uprising. Theyve sent proper tanks , helicopter gunships , mig fighters, artillery and rocket artillery in huge numbers to deal with civil unrest . The same people who called Yanukovich a dictator for banning them from wearing masks while rioting and seizing and burning buildings..
Ive also argued that post Kosovo the case for opposing Russian actions in Crimea is pretty much non existent as far as I can see, and certainly complete and utter hypocrisy.
And Ive also argued that the forces opposing the coup have very legitimate fears not only for their physical safety, their ethnic status in Ukraine, and for their socio economic future under the IMF, austerity and EU plunder of their resources, loss of Russian markets, subsidies and loans . And therefore very legitimate reasons for opposing EU integration, particularly at the point of a putschist and often fascist threat and gun . So their rejection isnt all that unreasonable in my view.
And that a sizable proportion of those who oppose it are left orientated and anti fascist . While conceding there are also quite unpleasant people among that particular milieu. However as far as I can see they dont exist in the same magnitude nor manner of empowerment to the fascist and pro fascist elements among the ranks of the coup supporters.
And I believe that has been my consistent line throughout. Which is a bit more complex and nuanced than what youve outlined.
so it appears to be yourself indulging in a bit of the old reducto ad Casuallorum
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
and we'll be taking all the black pudding with us too!Only about the cakes, a few beers and the cheese, to be fair!
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
If this thing drags on into the summer we'll have a whip round to buy you a new keyboard.
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
Please, take the Pontefract cakes as well <boke*>
*ate way too many of them as a kid and now can't even think about them without dry-heaving....
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
There's little hard evidence for official Russian involvement, just as there's little hard evidence (despite what CR/RT says otherwise!) for official EU & US involvement. Then again, there wouldn't be. Diplomacy and espionage both operate on the principle of deniability. You can expect there to be cut-offs between, for example, propaganda production supporting either side, and who is actually funding that propaganda production. We can only real go by what history and politics tells us.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
thats very nice of you, but as Ive also been accused in all seriousness as being a paid Russian mouthpiece of some sort I could well be writing it off as expenses occured in the field.
but its a nice offer
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
A poor imitation no doubt.That's alright. I make my own!
Although I'd never turn down a tasting session just to be sure
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
what are you on about..theres loads of evidence of EU and US Involvement. It kicked off with an EU ultimatum ffs
. They were in there on the ground cheering rioters on openly...handing out sandwiches ffs. Nuland admitted theyd poured billions into Ukraine to acheive their political ends there. She was recorded personally hand picking the junta.They havent even tried to deny it. They have openly done this, made no attempt to disguise it or deny it to any real degree. The only difference is they call fomenting coups democracy building, so they insist theres nothing dodgy about their dodgy as fuckness. Theyve done it right in the open and not given a flying fuck who saw it .
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
A poor imitation no doubt.
Although I'd never turn down a tasting session just to be sure
Mine doesn't have onions in, as Greebo is allergic to some members of the allium family, hence making it myself (life without black pudding being unacceptable!). I use roasted garlic instead.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Hmmmmm sounds interesting
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
what are you on about..theres loads of evidence of EU and US Involvement. It kicked off with an EU ultimatum ffs
They havent even tried to deny it. They have openly done this, made no attempt to disguise it or deny it to any real degree. The only difference is they call fomenting coups democracy building, so they insist theres nothing dodgy about their dodgy as fuckness. Theyve done it right in the open and not given a flying fuck who saw it .
You're confusing diplomacy and action. Everything either side has done (to Ukrainians) so far has been plausibly-deniable, even your supposed slam-dunk over Nuland.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It works!
My parents (both non-smokers) couldn't taste any difference in quality between it and their usual (from their local butcher in north Norfolk) "sunday breakfast" black pudding.
It's easy to make, too! Just as easy as most other sausages and salamis!
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
You may find your visa applications fast tracked in the future
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
it is not even remotely deniable the EU gave the Ukrainian government an ultimatum, and after it was rejected that US and EU minsters were on the ground personally encouraging rioters to keep rioting. Nor is it remotely deniable that a coup occured, and the coup is immediately recognised and supported diplomatically and financially by the western powers. None of thats deniable.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
me too. the long winded patronising ones are good, as is the grovelling apology.
my favourite though is after sunny jim saw him on the ground in tears and took the opportunity to deliver the coup de grace (sneaky, i like it) with ''Boo hoo. Piss off you cockwombling drama queen fuck knuckle'' and delroy raises his hands to the sky and bellows ''sweaty dildo!'' before expiring.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
political correctness literally gone maaaad
