Ukraine

[Casually Red]

To be honest an awful lot of demonstrations have far right elements on them, even in this country - I went on several demos against Israel in 2008, many of which had a significant number of people on them who were openly antisemitic - does that mean everyone else on the demo was a 'useful idiot' for fascism? Likewise during the large anti cuts demos several of such people also turned up, the EDL also got involved in bedroom tax stuff - does that mean everyone else there was an idiot and a fascist? You have to be REALLY careful with this stuff, not being funny but if you just blanketly call people fascists you are actually undermining anti fascism, there are very real reasons why people were protesting against Yanukovich which had absolutely nothing to do with the far right - by labelling stuff entirely far right you actually make it easier for the fash to take this kind of thing over

except the people im showing plainly arent anti Yanukovic protestors. Their fascist symbols are openly on display. In one case being burnt in front of them.

 

[Casually Red]

Can you actually explain what exactly is going on in any of those videos?

the first few show right sector members generally hassling people and engaging in provocations. Theyve arrived at that park overlooking Odessa in advance of an anti Kiev march in an attempt to disrupt it. Theres another video somewhere of the anti fascist march ...much much bigger than the fash demo being held back by cops whille the facsists taunt them with nazi salutes over the cops shoulders.

What appears to have happened is a large group of protestors headed for their HQ and put them out of it.

 

[Casually Red]

frogwoman The video that CR posted up from Odessa had at least three factions in that march. Also, the one that sunny_jim posted up you could hear chants of "Brekut! Berkut!"

Ive seen another video of that march with a guy even carrying an Israeli flag, he was on his own but he looked happy enough.
Many of these people see the Berkut as the peoples defenders.

 

[butchersapron]

What on earth are pictures of some people on a commemoration march of the liberation of Odesssa all dressed up in historical re-enactment gear got to do with anything. I know for some this whole thing is playing at history but come on.

 

[butchersapron]

Ive seen another video of that march with a guy even carrying an Israeli flag, he was on his own but he looked happy enough.
Many of these people see the Berkut as the peoples defenders.

Here's berkut special forces facebook site recently:

 

[butchersapron]

Do you speak russian or ukranian CR?

 

[frogwoman]

Do you speak russian or ukranian CR?

Yeah but berkut are anti fascists who are just against zionism butchers

 

[DairyQueen]

Ive seen another video of that march with a guy even carrying an Israeli flag, he was on his own but he looked happy enough.
Many of these people see the Berkut as the peoples defenders.

I was not making any comment on Berkut, and whether they are the good guys or bad guys.

 

[butchersapron]

And they're still putting that stuff up there right now - have a look at this stuff. Look at brevik the mass murdering jew.

 

[rekil]

Keeping an eye on things - like a latter day skibbereen eagle.

 

[Casually Red]

I was not making any comment on Berkut, and whether they are the good guys or bad guys.

neither was I. Im simply pointing out these people see themselves as being under threat from a junta and in particular its various neo nazi militias...groups that were supposed to have been disarmed and stood down under the Geneva agreement. They regard the Berkut as their defence force now.

 

[butchersapron]

Of course, CR doesn't mention Anton Raievskyi who was there in Odessa for that re-enactment with his Black Hundreds either.

 

[rekil]

Speaking of nazis, they have a demo in Berlin today. They're going to try march through Kreuzberg of all places. I suspect most of them haven't been there before with their uniforms.

 

[butchersapron]

Speaking of nazis, they have a demo in Berlin today. They're going to try march through Kreuzberg of all places. I suspect most of them haven't been there before with their uniforms.

Let's see if we can get some revenge for Guernica - 74 years ago today.

 

[Casually Red]

Speaking of nazis, they have a demo in Berlin today. They're going to try march through Kreuzberg of all places. I suspect most of them haven't been there before with their uniforms.

like an orange march up the falls...bonkers

 

[rekil]

Let's see if we can get some revenge for Guernica - 74 years ago today.

Predicting a shit turnout from the fucking bottlers.

 

[Belushi]

Last time they attempted to march through Kreuzberg it didn't go well for them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The whole concept of what is the Ukraine and who is a Ukrainian is a hugely contested one.

ViolentPanda

Yup! .
It's a little bit complex, but although Ukraine existed to Ukrainians for hundreds of years, it was always subsumed by other interests. At one time that was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, at another it was the Russian empire, and like it's eastern neighbour, it's composed of a mass of different peoples: everyone from Poles, to Romanians, Bulgarians and Hungarians; from Bukovinis to Letts, and (as always!) Russians: Every faith from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic, and still with a smattering of Jews!
Some Ukrainians will say "no Russians". IMHO that's ignorant. What should be said, and loudly, is "no rule and no interference from Russia, or elsewhere". Unfortunately, Russia has always believed in its' entitlement to Ukraine - that Ukraine is merely "southern Russia", and shall always be subordinate, as is its' proper place (in the eyes of Russia's elites, anyway).

 

[ViolentPanda]

And Poles!

Habsburgs and Russians and Poles - Oh my!!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you embarrassed by this post? You should be.

I would have facepalmed Jim's post, but there really aren't enough facepalms in the world for that, are there?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Answer the question - why shouldn't the people of eastern Ukraine have the right to self determination after the change in government they had no part of got into power?

Let's take that to what would be the logical conclusion for anyone who isn't an arsehole:
"Why shouldn't all the peoples of Ukraine have the right to self-determination after the change in government they had no part of got into power?".
Because if you see this simply in terms of east and west Ukraine, you've entirely missed any fucking point you might have originally had.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Since fucking when do you speak on behalf of the entire Eastern Ukrainian people and have the authority to make political pronouncements on their collective behalf?

They have every right to reject the government in Kiev, I'd do the same in their position, but I don't think that the armed Pro-Russian seperatists speak for the majority of Eastern Ukrainians even if the majority of those people refuse to consent to the Kiev government (for good reason) doesn't mean they are in necessarily favour of the Russian annexation and occupation of where they live, which is where this could well be heading. And in that situation the self-determination of the Eastern Ukrainian people will not matter at all compared to the geopolitical interests of the Russian state.

I've made it clear from early on in this thread that I don't support the Kyiv govt, that what I do support is democracy for Ukraine, and that means I don't support Russian and pro-Russian perspectives, and I certainly don't support EU and US attempts at manipulation and gamesmanship. For me it's simple. Ukrainian citizens, of whatever heritage or ethnicity, decide for themselves without outside interference.
Unfortunately, that appears to be too much to ask, with some pro-Russians chuntering on about "better Russian than fascist", which entirely misses the point of real democracy in Ukraine.

 

[DairyQueen]

Yup! .
It's a little bit complex, but although Ukraine existed to Ukrainians for hundreds of years, it was always subsumed by other interests. At one time that was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, at another it was the Russian empire, and like it's eastern neighbour, it's composed of a mass of different peoples: everyone from Poles, to Romanians, Bulgarians and Hungarians; from Bukovinis to Letts, and (as always!) Russians: Every faith from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic, and still with a smattering of Jews!
Some Ukrainians will say "no Russians". IMHO that's ignorant. What should be said, and loudly, is "no rule and no interference from Russia, or elsewhere". Unfortunately, Russia has always believed in its' entitlement to Ukraine - that Ukraine is merely "southern Russia", and shall always be subordinate, as is its' proper place (in the eyes of Russia's elites, anyway).

Russia has always been Ukraine's enemy? Considering how far you have gone back, just read about the Rurik dynasty and Russian history ffs. They have a long shared history, the idea of Ukraine is as absurd to many Russians (and Ukrainians) as the re-establishment of the Novogorod Republic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bet you a pound to a penny the people in Eastern Ukraine, if they were allowed a referendum, would vote not to be run by Kiev.

Most of Ukraine wouldn't vote to be run by the current Kyiv government,. you spanner.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Russia has always been Ukraine's enemy? Considering how far you have gone back, just read about the Rurik dynasty and Russian history ffs. They have a long shared history, the idea of Ukraine is as absurd to many Russians (and Ukrainians) as the re-establishment of the Novogorod Republic.

Where did I use the word "enemy", you disingenuous fuck? Get over putting words in my mouth.

 

[DairyQueen]

Oh, sorry. Their 'subordinates'. Right. Probably even more inaccurate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I fail to see how your fact reveals any deep-seated antipathy behind some of the conflict between "two states" or why that is relevant to this conflict in Ukraine. Maybe you are trying to explain something now, but it is far from clear what.

Yet again, you appear to have failed to read what I actually wrote, in favour of going off on a "talking point" of your own.
I spoke about people, not states.

Considering you lamented the fact America has not intervened in Ukraine up until now shortly after coming out with this slogan, it does seem a little Russophobic for my tastes. But each to their own.

Where have I lamented American non-intervention? What I've consistently lamented is the lack of real democracy for Ukrainians.
Please post links to actual quotes where I make this lament.

 

[rekil]

.

Last time they attempted to march through Kreuzberg it didn't go well for them.

They're still stuck at the startpoint. They can't get off Jannowitzbrücke unless the coppers clear a way for them. I think the NPD bigwig Sebastian Schmidtke was attacked earlier. (I'll leave this wee derail now)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh, sorry. Their 'subordinates'. Right. Probably even more inaccurate.

More disingenuousness. I didn't say "their subordinates", I said that to Russian elites (and anyone who wasn't a disingenuous fuck would know that I meant both the Kremlin and the capitalists), Ukraine is viewed as subordinate.

 

[Casually Red]

I've made it clear from early on in this thread that I don't support the Kyiv govt, that what I do support is democracy for Ukraine, and that means I don't support Russian and pro-Russian perspectives, and I certainly don't support EU and US attempts at manipulation and gamesmanship. For me it's simple. Ukrainian citizens, of whatever heritage or ethnicity, decide for themselves without outside interference.
Unfortunately, that appears to be too much to ask, with some pro-Russians chuntering on about "better Russian than fascist", which entirely misses the point of real democracy in Ukraine.

Except you havent made it clear at all. People dont seem to be taking that from any of your posts. you dont seem very ..remotely...annoyed that the United States along with the EU has just very blatantly and openly overthrown Ukrainian democracy and handpicked a ruling puppet junta, leading to the place breaking apart and a hairs breadth from civil war. Instead its just Russians this, Russians that ..the Russians. Thats all thats coming out of your posts. I dont remember you once critcising the overthrow of democracy in Ukraine.

your talk of support for democracy has the appearance to a casual observer of nothing more than a formula of words youre hiding behind to justify support for that bought and paid for crew. Thats how it looks. I cant speak for anyone else but it looks to me like others are getting the same message from your posts.

eta

EU and US attempts at manipulation and gamesmanship

its a bit more than a mere attempt though isnt it. Theyve sponsored a successful coup and seem to be running the show in Kiev pretty much.

Its stuff like this which sends those type of messages out.