Ukraine

[TomUS]

Obama has no soul. Or he is a full loon with a shallow disguise of humanity.

As CR said, he's terrified of being perceived as weak. This is strange because in domestic policy he's terrified of being perceived as strong.

 

[TomUS]

heres him at it again, Putin is a weakling but world war 3 wouldnt be appropriate

The war with Russia ,that absolutely nobody except him is talking about ,isnt on the table either .

“There is a better path, but I think even the Ukrainians would acknowledge that for us to engage Russia militarily would not be appropriate, and would not be good for Ukraine either,” the president said.



Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/barack-obama-ukraine-crimea-russia-104828.html#ixzz2zBI2c3i3

To be fair, Putin, through the RT presenter did make a pretty clear threat of nuclear war against the US. Both sides should cool the rhetoric.

 

[ferrelhadley]

One of the main objectives was to provoke the Soviet Navy / Airforce to react, so they could spy test their reaction protocols to create effective plans to counter them, often focusing particularly on ELINT (electronic intelligence). Book called Chatter by Patrick Radden Keefe about ECHELON goes into detail about this. They did this with submarines and planes, and it was called 'buzzing', trying to get Soviet planes, ships and submarines to respond to see what they do.

Sorry are you claiming this was boomers or just SSNs?

 

[Dillinger4]

both

 

[Casually Red]

As CR said, he's terrified of being perceived as weak. This is strange because in domestic policy he's terrified of being perceived as strong.

its not strange really . Hes just terrified of criticism . He doesnt handle it particularly well .

 

[DairyQueen]

As CR said, he's terrified of being perceived as weak. This is strange because in domestic policy he's terrified of being perceived as strong.

its not strange really . Hes just terrified of criticism . He doesnt handle it particularly well .

Obama wants to portray America as a democracy and also be the unelected leader of the world. There is no nuance here, it is all just the product of PR men.

This part of the Ukrainian crisis showed that America is more than willing to risk an apocalypse in an industrialised country (Ukraine) regardless of what locals might think (Donetsk must be purged of the wrong type of masked gunman no matter the costs) and that fundamentally the West cannot cope with a multipolar world.

Would prefer this thread to turn into a talk about Ukrainian untermensch. If I wanted to read bollocks about how Obama and Putin played this, I can read all mainstream press.

 

[Casually Red]

as regards the criticisms of the British medias take on Ukraine weve had on this thread, according to this RT article the good people of Dalston in north east London arent all that impressed with it either, or their politicians.

WORLDbytes, a citizen TV channel, hit the streets of London to gather residents' views on the situation in Ukraine. 'View on the Streets: Ukraine' found that the majority of those asked don't believe the version of events reported by mainstream UK media.


The TV channel asked people in the northeast London neighborhood of Dalston – a multicultural area considered to be left of center in its politics – about their opinions regarding Ukraine.

http://rt.com/news/uk-ukraine-media-opinion-280/

and heres the video of Dalstons citizenry putting them straight

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-view-on-the-streets-ukraine/14920#.U1BLb6K9b-8

 

[Casually Red]

Obama wants to portray America as a democracy and also be the unelected leader of the world. There is no nuance here, it is all just the product of PR men.

This part of the Ukrainian crisis showed that America is more than willing to risk an apocalypse in an industrialised country (Ukraine) regardless of what locals might think (Donetsk must be purged of the wrong type of masked gunman no matter the costs) and that fundamentally the West cannot cope with a multipolar world.

Would prefer this thread to turn into a talk about Ukrainian untermensch. If I wanted to read bollocks about how Obama and Putin played this, I can read all mainstream press.

well its not your thread unfortunately so sadly youll just have to put up with the others on it. Feel free however to make your own informative contributions rather than complaining others arent doing whatever it is you want them to do for you.

 

[laptop]

he said what he said

Have you read what he said?

The only quote from Obama in the piece that's really relevant to "standing up" the headline is:

Mr Obama added: "[Russia] are not interested in any kind of military confrontation with us, understanding that our conventional forces are significantly superior to the Russians."

You went on...

Obama actually said that stuff .

Actually, on what we have, Obama said actually there would not be war. Sam Kiley spun it into this having "raised the prospect of war". Someone else wrote the "raises the spectre" headline.

 

[Casually Red]

Have you read what he said?

The only quote from Obama in the piece that's really relevant to "standing up" the headline is:



You went on...



Actually, on what we have, Obama said actually there would not be war. Sam Kiley spun it into this having "raised the prospect of war". Someone else wrote the "raises the spectre" headline.

so your disagreeing with me by pointing out the quote was actually relevant to the headline accompanying the piece and confirming the point Obama keeps saying the words war with Russia. That nobody of note bar himself is publicly talking about.

interesting

 

[DairyQueen]

well its not your thread unfortunately so sadly youll just have to put up with the others on it. Feel free however to make your own informative contributions rather than complaining others arent doing whatever it is you want them to do for you.

Says Casually Red, the man who has used this thread as a personal blog.

 

[goldenecitrone]

The TV channel asked people in the northeast London neighborhood of Dalston – a multicultural area considered to be left of center in its politics – about their opinions regarding Ukraine.

Dalstonites are a pretty hip bunch these days.

 

[Casually Red]

if you dont want to read what im writing feel free to use the ignore button, its whats for . Ive found it generally lessens the bouts of personalised feuding that tends to derail threads.

 

[DairyQueen]

http://rt.com/news/uk-ukraine-media-opinion-280/

and heres the video of Dalstons citizenry putting them straight

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-view-on-the-streets-ukraine/14920#.U1BLb6K9b-8

Jesus Christ, so Donetsk get a People's Republic and Putin's man in London is Brendan O'Neill. There is something deeply unfair about that.

 

[laptop]

so your disagreeing with me by pointing out the quote was actually relevant to the headline

I pointed out the exact opposite.

Obama keeps saying the words war with Russia. That nobody of note bar himself is publicly talking about.

I mentioned only the Sky story, which used these words but did not report him saying them.

 

[yield]

I posted this last month but it's still relevant I think?
An Interview With Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn on Ukraine
Counterpunch March 14-16, 2014
This interview appeared in the May 9, 1994, issue of Forbes magazine.

Why does the [USA] State Department decide who should get Sevastopol? If one recalls the tactless declaration of President Bush about supporting Ukrainian sovereignty even before the referendum on that matter, one must conclude that all this stems from a common aim: to use all means possible, no matter what the consequences, to weaken Russia.
Why does independence for Ukraine weaken Russia?

As a result of the sudden and crude fragmentation of the intermingled Slavic peoples, the borders have torn apart millions of ties of family and friendship. Is this acceptable? The recent elections in Ukraine, for instance, clearly show the [Russian] sympathies of the Crimean and Donets populations. And a democracy must respect this.

I myself am nearly half Ukrainian. I grew up with the sounds of Ukrainian speech. I love her culture and genuinely wish all kinds of success for Ukraine–but only within her real ethnic boundaries, without grabbing Russian provinces.

This is an existential crisis for Putin as he sees it. I think he'll go all in. I hope not. We'll see.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I don't see how rushing to support reactionary Russian chauvinists and Slavic-unity mongers who hate Jews and gays makes for sound antifa politics, even if the Kiev government is full of scumbags too.

I've not kept up with this thread in the last few days, so who is it that is doing this exactly?

 

[Dillinger4]

nobody

 

[Diamond]

You're far more irritating than the 'Putinists' tbh

I do not care whether I irritate you.

The matter is not one of irritation or placation, it is a thing of tyranny.

In light of that, I will continue to advocate the opposite - rule of law, freedom and accountability.

Judging by your post either you misunderstand such concepts, put little stock by them or embrace their counter.

 

[butchersapron]

I do not care whether I irritate you.

The matter is not one of irritation or placation, it is a thing of tyranny.

In light of that, I will continue to advocate the opposite - rule of law, freedom and accountability.

Judging by your post either you misunderstand such concepts, put little stock by them or embrace their counter.

Check out woodrow wyatt.

 

[Diamond]

One of the main objectives was to provoke the Soviet Navy / Airforce to react, so they could spy test their reaction protocols to create effective plans to counter them, often focusing particularly on ELINT (electronic intelligence). Book called Chatter by Patrick Radden Keefe about ECHELON goes into detail about this. They did this with submarines and planes, and it was called 'buzzing', trying to get Soviet planes, ships and submarines to respond to see what they do.

Another reason was to spy on the movements of Soviet submarines (primarily coming out of Murmansk). This was to track their movements before they reached the SOSUS sonar array, but also to investigate new Soviet submarines on test runs.

But for the most part, it was to project fear into the Soviet Union. So that they knew that the United States could launch nuclear missiles from within Soviet borders and hit Russian cities within minutes.

There are almost certainly more reasons. That is off the top of my head.

Russia could penetrate SOSUS. But after they crossed the line, US/UK navies would know their exact location and they would be tracked all over the Atlantic by US/UK navies, and would be constantly harrassed with sonar and so on until they returned to Soviet borders. There is only one known case of soviet submarines shaking the tracking, and this prompted a full naval mobilzation across the North Atlantic.

Wait just a second....can we at least all agree that we are not recycling the cold war here?

This is the Russian Federation, not the Soviets, we are dealing with.

Major, major, muchismo major difference.

Does everyone get this?

Does anyone disagree?

It`s an easy and very lazy mistake to make but Putin`s Russia is very, very far from Brehznev`s USSR.

 

[Dillinger4]

Same United States though.

 

[Diamond]

In the last seven years, Putin has launched operations to annex ("revanchism") significant portions of neighbouring countries on two occasions, apparently based on an irredentist world view.

Further, in the same time period he has used Russian gas supplies to threaten the energy grid of much of Central and Eastern Europe - as an antitrust lawyer, this is known as the denial of "essential facilities" and is highly illegal on an international basis.

Even earlier, he made his name as the hammer of Chechyna, wiping out Grozny and generally burning the surrounding ravines and valleys into submission.

It is astonishing that he gets any credit here whatsoever given his record, his dominant tactics and his demeanour.

The only reason that I can think of is spite at some perceived "Western Complex", which is genuinely lunatic thinking.

 

[Diamond]

Same United States though.

Lazy, lazy thinking...

 

[Treacle Toes]

Can I trust this source?

Flyer orders registration of Jews in Donetsk
World - April 17, 2014 11:57AM

According to reports, leaflets have been handed out in the eastern Ukraine city of Donetsk ordering Jewish residents of the city to register.

http://cir.ca/news/jews-in-eastern-ukraine

 

[butchersapron]

Can I trust this source?



http://cir.ca/news/jews-in-eastern-ukraine

No, it's nonsense. The flyers were distributed but as part of a pretty transparent provocation (some people suggesting it's the work of a local pro-current kiev govt governer). Which isn't to say there aren't fascists and anti-semites on the pro-Russian side as there are on others.

 

[Diamond]

Can I trust this source?



http://cir.ca/news/jews-in-eastern-ukraine

On reflection, and given the channels through which the message seems to be directed, I would estimate that there is a degree of SIS/CIA involvement there.

But here`s the thing, and it makes an interesting way to think about the totality, it is not as if SIS have to organise a total response, they can freeride on the general disorganisation to try and undermine their Russian equals and vice versa.

That is where the really dangerous game is being played - in second and third and fourth and so on guessing their moves...

 

[Diamond]

I know I`m going to get in the neck from the poster that I hold in greatest respect here (that`s you butchers, you incorrigible leftie!), but this game theory analysis of the Ukraine crisis is really, really worth reading:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/04/war

 

[J Ed]

http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2014/04/17/why-socialists-should-side-ukraine-against-russia lol, wow

 

[frogwoman]

On reflection, and given the channels through which the message seems to be directed, I would estimate that there is a degree of SIS/CIA involvement there.

But here`s the thing, and it makes an interesting way to think about the totality, it is not as if SIS have to organise a total response, they can freeride on the general disorganisation to try and undermine their Russian equals and vice versa.

That is where the really dangerous game is being played - in second and third and fourth and so on guessing their moves...

Nah I doubt it, I reckon it was either someone trying to cause trouble and undermine the separatist authorities or another neo Nazi group that was taking advantage of the situation