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Ukraine

laptop said:
Oh god. When arguing against stupidity, it is necessary to spell every-thing out in words of one syl-lab-ble.

If Ukraine isn't riddled with spies, I'm a banana.

The NSA doesn't even need to crack Russian encryption: traffic analysis - who sends encrypted messages to whom - suffices.

Neither kind of source would ever be mentioned in public.

Same goes for Rossiya Today: the Russian secret services may well have evidence of US interference in Kiev but are never going to say what it is.
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for fucks sake i havent said the US government actually believe what the Ukrainian junta are telling them . What ive stated is they are coming out with a definite state department line as regards what is happening in Ukraine . When pressed as to the source of their information that leads to this line theyve stated that its the Ukrainian government, and their word is simply being accepted as good enough . The Ukrainian junta is ...for anyone who isnt totally stupid...saying exactly what the white house wants them to say for propaganda purposes, and the state department are acting as their own mouthpiece . The point is the state department are saying theyve absolutely no intention of listening to or reapeating information from any alternative source that might be off message and presenting a different narrative .


sadly it appears i have to spell this obviousness out for the dimwitted, as unfortunately its myself who has to argue against some immense stupidity here
 
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classicdish said:
OK lets start with point 7


So since the end of February how many people have been murdered, arrested, disappered etc by the Yatsenyuk government? Where is the evidence of a wide-spread oppression/attack on ethnic Russians in Ukraine? Is this real or is it being made up by Russian media and government?
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this article and the links contained within gives a fairly good overview .

http://www.voltairenet.org/article183206.html

although this concerns the situation prior to the junta sending the tanks , jets, artillery and fascist paramilitaries into eastern ukraine. People have been getting killed and rounded up since that has started.
 
treelover said:
Nato G/Sec: "more planes, more ships and more resources will be sent to our partners in the East"
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It's ridiculous isn't it, what are they going to do with all these planes and ships anyway if things kick off. It's like boasting about bringing an extra knuckle-duster to an artillery duel. There's absolutely no point talking tough like this, all emphasis should be on diplomacy, de-escalation and negotiation if this was really about peace and democracy or what-have-you rather than aprons "chess games" and mad bids to 'dominate the board'.

If things kicked off then they should leave the jet planes at home tbh, if they really want to talk tough they should be boasting to us about how NATO are prepared to lose 90 percent of 95 percent of our cities, how they reckon we can still prevail against the Ruskie scum having sustained 100 million deaths in the first 2 hours and 800 million deaths by the end of Day 1 while inflicting far more damage against the enemy, how we have stock-piled radiation-sickness medicine, canned food and bottled water and how the civil authorities are ready to deal with the mass panic, clouds of radioactive ash and burning countryside. They should be letting us know about what we're doing to keep on top of the Strangelovian 'Cave Gap' before gravely informing us all that we are now at DEFCON 3.

What do they think the jet planes are going to do anyway if Putin says "Fuck it all then" tomorrow. It's all quite ridiculous. I'm guessing that this kind of talk would sharpen minds and priorities pretty fast, and if democratic will had anything to do with it the clear message would be "fuckit, leave it then". Save yer jet-planes for bombing wedding parties in goat-based economies yeh, seeing as they're useless against someone with also masses and masses of nukes and other advanced weaponry.

NATO trying to keep itself relevant by chatting totally irrelevant bollocks imo.

'We're a big expensive gun club, because the likes of Lockheed, Ratheon an BAE's gotta eat. Please donate generously' <- see.. easy. Why not just be honest instead of all this fuss.
 
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See, i saw that last night and could have posted it as fact in the way CR does - as stone cold fact - but i used my critical faculties, dug around a bit and its pretty clearly someone either jumping on the thing from without or someone trying to cause trouble. There are far-righters involved - see the bloke talking about the 'jew trotsky' the other day and some of the political history of those who helped kick these actions off. Imagine the propaganda field day we would see if they had appeared elsewhere.
 
Jewish leaders are worried by Putin and anti-Semitism in Russia.

Jewish leaders in Ukraine have written an open letter to Russian President Vladimir Putin, urging him to withdraw his troops from their country and rejecting his claims of anti-Semitic activity there.

The letter, published on the website of the Euro-Asian Jewish Congress, casts doubts on Putin's motivations for sending his troops into Ukraine in the wake of the mass protests that led to the removal from power of former president Viktor Yanukovich last month. And regarding anti-Jewish sentiment, the letters states that Russia is far more guilty of anti-Semitism than Ukraine.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4497618,00.html
 
dylanredefined said:
Cos they are shutting down their war and have heaps of army gear lying around so cheaper to give it away than store it. Makes it look like they are doing something and it annoys the Russians.
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Or maybe the new government in Kiev is being ignored by the military? They do have an army in Ukraine and presumably equipment to go with it - they're not rebels fighting a bigger force like in Syria - so why would they want 'non lethal military aid'? Seems strange to me.
 
sunny jim said:
Or maybe the new government in Kiev is being ignored by the military? They do have an army in Ukraine and presumably equipment to go with it - they're not rebels fighting a bigger force like in Syria - so why would they want 'non lethal military aid'? Seems strange to me.
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Having worked with the Ukrainian army. It was short of everything so would happily except a big bag of stuff from uncle Sam (If only to flog it down the market for vodka)
 
Casually Red said:
for fucks sake i havent said the US government actually believe what the Ukrainian junta are telling them . What ive stated is they are coming out with a definite state department line as regards what is happening in Ukraine . When pressed as to the source of their information that leads to this line theyve stated that its the Ukrainian government, and their word is simply being accepted as good enough . The Ukrainian junta is ...for anyone who isnt totally stupid...saying exactly what the white house wants them to say for propaganda purposes, and the state department are acting as their own mouthpiece . The point is the state department are saying theyve absolutely no intention of listening to or reapeating information from any alternative source that might be off message and presenting a different narrative .


sadly it appears i have to spell this obviousness out for the dimwitted, as unfortunately its myself who has to argue against some immense stupidity here
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You haven't understood a word I've written. Go back to supporting a football team, right or wrong, and leave the real world alone.
 
camouflage said:
Yawn. Sci fi wank fantasies:confused: the fuck is wrong with you people, when did reading novels become something people are expected to be embarresed about. From Banks to LeGuin, I have nothing to be ashamed of regards what I take to the beach so let it go. As for bitcoins, again... that an interest in new technologies messes with your head for some reason is not an effective criticism. Fucking luddite. Tell me something, the first time you heard someone say 'tell you what, this email thing... what are the possibilities!' did you lunge at them in an attempt to claw their face? I like to read, scifi, history, economics... to inform myself or just for fun, I have an imagition, I find new ideas interesting, I like to think... So what, maybe where you come from this is all a mark of shame. 'That's right, I'm a reader.'

Back on relevance... the federal solution does sound like the sane approach to sorting out this mess in Ukraine. You're right, the Westerners in Ukraine should be allowed to join the gang if that's what they want. NATO should keep out though.
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You're a wannabe capitalist dreamer (quite horrible when you think about it) with a child-like binary view of the world. You also appear to not understand Luddism.

Furthermore, you displayed ignorance about the corruption, exploitation and state security abuses behind the Winter Olympics in Sochi.
 
seventh bullet said:
You're a wannabe capitalist dreamer (quite horrible when you think about it) with a child-like binary view of the world. You also appear to not understand Luddism.

Furthermore, you displayed ignorance about the corruption, exploitation and state security abuses behind the Winter Olympics in Sochi.
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A wannabe capitalist dreamer... I literally have no idea where you get your ideas.

Manicheanism is a constant pressure for us all, subtly and nuance are slippery and represent a higher level of effort. You display the same thing in every post you direct at me.
 
seventh bullet said:
Then why ask if you already knew? And it isn't 'pineapple', is it? That was the name given to an American-made grenade.
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I didn't already know. I was thanking you for your hypothesis.

And if you followed the links you'd see I got "pineapple" from Google Translate, because I was curious about the name of the paper.
 
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sunny jim said:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/us-offers-ukraine-non-lethal-military-aid

Why is the US offering Ukraine anything to do with military aid? Doesn't it have its own equipment? Has the whole army defected? We should be told.
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Maybe it's this:

"One of the biggest problems facing the Ukrainians now is that their encrypted military communications channels are widely believed to be penetrated by the Russians. As a result, the crucial communications of Ukraine’s military divisions as they move into eastern Ukraine have been conducted over unencrypted lines, making it nearly impossible for the Ukrainian military to have any element of surprise. The Ukrainian government is said to be requesting advanced secure communications equipment from the United States, one on a long list of items the U.S. government has not yet agreed to provide."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...he-cia-director-was-really-doing-in-kiev.html
 
J Ed said:
Really hope this isn't true, horrible stuff though there is every reason for pro-Kiev groups to want to distribute this and none for the separatists.
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i think its best taken with a bucketload of salt . It sounds like a fairly cack handed provocation , that even the various witnesses cited arent accepting as genuine.
 
laptop said:
You haven't understood a word I've written. Go back to supporting a football team, right or wrong, and leave the real world alone.
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yes i bloody well have . Youve been a very stupid boy and claimed I said the US government is reliant upon the Ukrainian government for information coming out of Ukraine. Thats the US government which has satellites and stuff just for starters.
It was a dimwitted position for you to adopt.
 
Casually Red said:
yes i bloody well have . Youve been a very stupid boy and claimed I said the US government is reliant upon the Ukrainian government for information coming out of Ukraine. Thats the US government which has satellites and stuff just for starters.
It was a dimwitted position for you to adopt.
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So someone else posted the following?

Casually Red said:
The US state department has admitted to reporters it is formulating these positions solely on the basis of what the junta in Kiev is telling them, and dont see any need for a corroborating third party. So basically Classicdish is giing us the Kiev junta line. Uncritically.
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sunny jim said:
Or maybe the new government in Kiev is being ignored by the military? They do have an army in Ukraine and presumably equipment to go with it - they're not rebels fighting a bigger force like in Syria - so why would they want 'non lethal military aid'? Seems strange to me.
Click to expand...


I think the non lethal military aid might well even involve stuff like fuel, which they are extremely short of. Theyre flat broke.

Heres them burning up plenty of it trying terrorise civilians though

 
laptop said:
So someone else posted the following?
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no, i posted it. It clearly states they arent interested in formulating their positions based on anything else except for the line the junta is coming out with.

What youve done is take that statement and then extrapolate from it something completely different, and frankly ridiculous.
 
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The US will be itching to dispatch it's 'Bringing democracy' ploy as soon as it can.
Shame that the US is an oligarchy itself!
 
I was watching the marathon q and a session Putin was doing earlier. Some sarcastic pensioner phoned in and asked him was he planning to retake Alaska as well.

I was pretty relieved to hear him say no.
 
Been away for a bit again.

How are the Putinists and associated apologists treating the Donetsk leaflet?

Or are they just ignoring it?

Also, have their views on the Baltic states been sounded out yet given it seems quite likely that they are next in line?
 
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