Ukraine

[articul8]

I don't see how rushing to support reactionary Russian chauvinists and Slavic-unity mongers who hate Jews and gays makes for sound antifa politics, even if the Kiev government is full of scumbags too.

 

[DairyQueen]

Odd reading and response. I don't know how you got to the above from the piece. The article argues a couple of simple things:

1) That the possibility of an independent class politics in eastern Ukraine is being destroyed by a rival nationalisms that is are increasingly colonising class and left politics.

2) That the logic of lesser evilism is helping develop this situation by forcing the class to choose one nationalism or govt of the bourgeois (or lesser evil) or the other. That given the historical situation there is no clear lesser evilism even if this logic were sound - the only result of forcing this choice is to reinforce divisive aggressive nationalist logic and damage other more helpful approaches.

To your responses: the basis for class politics does exist - and it always does - but is now being driven into and expressed through nationalism “for our struggle we need money, and we don’t have any – so let’s take it from the rich”. If you take as your start point the centrality of class politics to getting beyond this mess then taking a critical look at the realities of the situation, how its impacting on those class politics and the future prospects is a good and useful thing to do. It's rather different though from a simple expectation that mass class based politics simply follows from widespread civil disorder and conflict - which seems to me to be the basis of your first dismisall, The suggestion that these are poor naifs with daft expectations rather than people taking a cold hard critical look at the reality of the situation and attempting to analyse the dynamics driving it.

Only criticise one side? Ok, this piece is part of an ongoing discussion where certain facts are now taken as facts - there is no need to recapitulate the history of the thing or lay out a ritual condemnation each time you offer something to the discussion. Do you think not partaking of this ritual means they're somehow soft on or supportive of the ukranian state and govt - the one they condemn as being a catspaw of the bourgeois and ukranian capital, which you seemed to miss. Ok then, your piece failed to mention that support of the russian far-right for Putin and the russian states actions - would you accept someone then suggesting that you are soft on or supportive of russian style national bolshevism? I would really hope not.

It gets worse though, you go onto say that the authors "appear to endorse "growing unity around the current government" without much in the way of reservation." Now this is pretty bad. What you've done is confuse them saying that there is a growing unity among the ukranian population behind the govt - a govt that they have insisted is one of the actors in forcing this nationalist logic onto the stage, in forcing this lesser evilism onto the stage, in helping close off the potential of class politics, the very thing they wrote the piece to criticise and argue against - with them supporting that developing national unity - the national unity from which "no class struggle can be expected". Really, how did you get to them writing a piece criticising the growing unity around the national govt on a nationalist basis partly because it displaces class politics to them endorsing that growing unity?

Your third para only highlights the truth of what the article says - you recount a russian living in the same area as D. being forced to choose russia whilst d. sees putin and the russian state as worse. There's the division on nationalist lines happening in front of your eyes and growing out of your own example.

As for the message - if message there even be - well, there's a clear split there between GL outward looking and rather pointless plea to western european labour and left movements. And then there's D'd internal plea for people to resist the call of nationalism, not to allow themselves to be the tools of the russian state or the ukranian bourgeoisie. To take sides with people.

I certainly took from his articles that Levy claims the EU was the lesser of the two evils, even if that is just one voice and the general point is actually about recognizing how Russian intervention is diminishing working-class solidarity. However, if Levy argues that compared to the EU, Russia is a decrepit has-been power dependent on western money (I am not saying it is). Surely, then, it would follow that being locked-in to a far more efficient, strong neoliberal EU state will be far more damaging to working-class consciousness in the forseeable future?

 

[camouflage]

The WSWS is the website of what's known in the UK as the socialist equality party. A lunatic remnant of the WRP. That website was also one of the first places to publish 9/11 conspiracy theories.

PS: what's the class composition of the Russian state?

Interesting remarks on wsws.org. Still, I agree with this article that I have linked to and partially quoted.

PS: what's the class composition of EUSUKNATOland? I mean, should we not start our analysis at home, let alone start with the Powerful? Why spend all this time examining the class composition of the country that doesn't have military bases and carrier-groups scattered all over the globe, dominating international institutions, the global financial system, puppet states all over the place, decades and decades spent crushing labor on every continent with coups and wars and the manipulation of fear and ethnic and religious tensions etc?

 

[camouflage]

I don't see how rushing to support reactionary Russian chauvinists and Slavic-unity mongers who hate Jews and gays makes for sound antifa politics, even if the Kiev government is full of scumbags too.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Interesting remarks on wsws.org. Still, I agree with this article that I have linked to and partially quoted.

PS: what's the class composition of EUSUKNATOland? I mean, should we not start our analysis at home, let alone start with the Powerful? Why spend all this time examining the class composition of the country that doesn't have military bases and carrier-groups scattered all over the globe, dominating international institutions, the global financial system, puppet states all over the place, decades and decades spent crushing labor on every continent with coups and wars and the manipulation of fear and ethnic and religious tensions etc?

I think you've kind of missed the point there.

Also, can you point to where I've expressed support, of any kind, for 'EUSUKNATOland', or for that matter the EU (which I'd like the UK to leave so I'm hardly going to be cheerleading someone else joining) the US (see my post prior to the one you're quoting for my views on them) or NATO? Or even the Kiev government?

Do I have to choose between the two? I'd rather not if it's all the same.

 

[camouflage]

I think you've kind of missed the point there.

Also, can you point to where I've expressed support, of any kind, for 'EUSUKNATOland', or for that matter the EU (which I'd like the UK to leave so I'm hardly going to be cheerleading someone else joining) the US (see my post prior to the one you're quoting for my views on them) or NATO? Or even the Kiev government?

Do I have to choose between the two? I'd rather not if it's all the same.

Great. Are we going to discuss the class composition of any of the components of EUSUKNATOland then? If you had asked me about the class composition of Saddams Husseins Iraq on the eve of USUKs invasion in 2003, I would have been a little nonplussed.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Much as I hate to defend our resident labour party hack, I think he was referring to the Russian state and its powerful friends in Ukraine rather than the Russian people as a whole.

It's a distinction worth making too.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Great. Are we going to discuss the class composition of any of the components of EUSUKNATOland then? If you had asked me about the class composition of Saddams Husseins Iraq on the eve of USUKs invasion, I would have been a little nonplussed.

The article you posted expressed, or at least implied, support for Russia's objectives and used the class composition of the Euromaidan to support this position.

I can tell you the class composition of all those bodies if you like though. They're bourgeois to the core. Just like the Russian state. I support neither.

As far as I know nobody is talking about invading Russia - at least nobody sane and nobody with the power to actually do it. Or did I miss that news report?

Suffice to say, if there was serious talk of invading Russia I would be opposed (and fucking terrified) and would take to the streets to express my opposition.

 

[treelover]

Nato G/Sec: "more planes, more ships and more resources will be sent to our partners in the East"

 

[camouflage]

Much as I hate to defend our resident labour party hack, I think he was referring to the Russian state and its powerful friends in Ukraine rather than the Russian people as a whole.

It's a distinction worth making too.

I see myself more as (somewhat compulsively) rushing not to defend the big bad uncivilised brute (that we all know hates gays and jews), as I am rushing to oppose the Great Rightwing Regime in the West, and (what I consider to be) it's machinations.

And it's all very well when people dole out the usual "not the people of <target nation here> of course, they're a lovely bunch, I mean the evil regime that rules <target nation here>" That 'distinction' rarely plays out in reality though.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I see myself more as (somewhat compulsively) rushing not to defend the big bad uncivilised brute (that we all know hates gays and jews), as I am rushing to oppose the Great Rightwing Regime in the West, and (what I consider to be) it's machinations.

My enemy's enemy eh?

So does this mean everyone in the west is a horrible right winger to be opposed then?

After all

...it's all very well when people dole out the usual "not the people of <target nation here> of course, they're a lovely bunch, I mean the evil regime that rules <target nation here>" That 'distinction' rarely plays out in reality though.

It does play out in reality. I fucking detested Sadam Hussein and his regime and was quite open about it. I also marched against the Iraq war.

 

[camouflage]

The article you posted expressed, or at least implied, support for Russia's objectives and used the class composition of the Euromaidan to support this position.

I can tell you the class composition of all those bodies if you like though. They're bourgeois to the core. Just like the Russian state. I support neither.

As far as I know nobody is talking about invading Russia - at least nobody sane and nobody with the power to actually do it. Or did I miss that news report?

Suffice to say, if there was serious talk of invading Russia I would be opposed (and fucking terrified) and would take to the streets to express my opposition.

Ok, I agree. However I do find it worth noting that the miners and factory workers in the East of Ukraine have reason to be concerned about how they will feed and warm themselves in the face of Western policies. Russia has subsidized their fuel bills and is the market that provides their income. What does the EU, NATO, and ultimately the US want with these people? Their lives are already hard... what's the agenda here? Basically, the 'both as bad as eachother' approach actually favors the West and ignores those peoples day to day reality. My opinion is that EU/US policies are the aggression here. We want something from them that is more than they are already giving, to complicate their already difficult lives.

 

[camouflage]

My enemy's enemy eh?

So does this mean everyone in the west is a horrible right winger to be opposed then?

No... not my enemies enemy. Just.. "ah ffs, is my evil country up to tricks again!? who are we looking to interfere with this time while up on our high horse as if we're all about the democracy and freedom??? Are we still rolling with that Red&White Stripes Gang!? Goddamnit Cartman, leave those people alone! Stop pretending you're trying to help! Stop mugging people and calling it First Aid"

And there's always some cunt in that pointy house by the Thames pissing on some foreigners feet somewhere and calling it the rain of freedom.

I fucking detested Sadam Hussein and his regime and was quite open about it. I also marched against the Iraq war.

And good on ya. Nonetheless over 100,000 people died in Iraq, probably ten times that much since the Lancet Report, and are still dying today. So much for the distinction between Saddam and the People of Iraq. Give the fuckers an inch and they'll fuck the whole population is what I'm trying to get at.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Ok, I agree. However I do find it worth noting that the miners and factory workers in the East of Ukraine have reason to be concerned about how they will feed and warm themselves in the face of Western policies. Russia has subsidized their fuel bills and is the market that provides their income. What does the EU, NATO, and ultimately the US want with these people? Their lives are already hard... what's the agenda here? Basically, the 'both as bad as eachother' approach actually favors the West and ignores those peoples day to day reality. My opinion is that EU/US policies are the aggression here. We want something from them that is more than they are already giving, to complicate their already difficult lives.

I don't think that is really what 'we' want (whoever this 'we' is). What 'we' (if by 'we' you mean British state/EU/NATO) want is for them not to be under Russia's sphere of influence.

It matters not though - the confrontation is there, it's a material fact. Putin doesn't care about these people - they're pawns on his geostrategic chessboard. I'm not ignoring this stuff but their dilapidated industries aren't going to be invested in and they're not going to benefit from Russain trade for ever whatever happens.

What's needed - for them as well as those in the west (who you neglect to mention - full EU integration probably would benefit a lot of them as they can take advantage of freedom of movement and find better employment prospects elsewhere) is for some kind of independent class based politics to emerge. This whole pick a side/clash of nationalisms discourse can only hamper that possibility.

 

[SpineyNorman]

No... not my enemies enemy. Just.. "ah ffs, is my evil country up to tricks again!? who are we looking to interfere with this time while up on our high horse as if we're all about the democracy and freedom??? Ah we still rolling with that red an white stripes gang!? Goddamnit Cartman, leave those people alone! Stop pretending you're trying to help! Stop mugging people and calling it First Aid"

Are you feeling ok?

And there's always some cunt in that pointy house by the Thames pissing on some foreigners feet somewhere and calling it the rain of freedom.

See above.

And good on ya. Nonetheless over 100,000 people died in Iraq, probably ten times that much since the Lancet Report, and are still dying today. So much for the distinction between Saddam and the People of Iraq.

So I can't criticise Russia because hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq? Even though I opposed the invasion of Iraq? Just because states don't honour that distinction doesn't mean I have to pretend not to acknowledge it.

Anyway, that's me done for tonight. Too busy for this and besides, I don't know what you're on about half the time (I suspect that makes two of us).

 

[camouflage]

Are you feeling ok?



See above.



So I can't criticise Russia because hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq? Even though I opposed the invasion of Iraq? Just because states don't honour that distinction doesn't mean I have to pretend not to acknowledge it.

Anyway, that's me done for tonight. Too busy for this and besides, I don't know what you're on about half the time (I suspect that makes two of us).

Yeh whatever. Jog on.

Some cunt...

 

[DairyQueen]

What's needed - (who you neglect to mention - full EU integration probably would benefit a lot of them as they can take advantage of freedom of movement and find better employment prospects elsewhere) is for some kind of independent class based politics to emerge.

How will freedom of movement benefit class-based politics though if you are saying that Donetsk is full of shit factories and it is better for them to leave that dump for Western Europe so they can do something efficient, like serve us some coffee and wipe up our puke on a temporary contract for minimum wage?

 

[Diamond]

Been away for a bit traipsing around lost Mayan cities...

Tell me, are there still folk with their heads in the sand like Casually Red and, if so, what contortions have they contrived to meet the new "facts on the ground" (horrible phrase that seems to have passed into common parlance for no particular reason...)?

 

[camouflage]

I don't think that is really what 'we' want (whoever this 'we' is). What 'we' (if by 'we' you mean British state/EU/NATO) want is for them not to be under Russia's sphere of influence.

It matters not though - the confrontation is there, it's a material fact. Putin doesn't care about these people - they're pawns on his geostrategic chessboard. I'm not ignoring this stuff but their dilapidated industries aren't going to be invested in and they're not going to benefit from Russain trade for ever whatever happens.

What's needed - for them as well as those in the east (who you neglect to mention - full EU integration probably would benefit a lot of them as they can take advantage of freedom of movement and find better employment prospects elsewhere) is for some kind of independent class based politics to emerge. This whole pick a side/clash of nationalisms discourse can only hamper that possibility.

Yep. that's the shit I'm talking about. Textbook example, could almost come with diagrams with little tags on it. Title reads: Anatomy of a Neo-Liberal Apologist. TINA, etc.

 

[camouflage]

Been away for a bit traipsing around lost Mayan cities...

Tell me, are there still folk with their heads in the sand like Casually Red and, if so, what contortions have they contrived to meet the new "facts on the ground" (horrible phrase that seems to have passed into common parlance for no particular reason...)?

twat off back to your dead cities.

 

[framed]

What's needed - for them as well as those in the east (who you neglect to mention - full EU integration probably would benefit a lot of them as they can take advantage of freedom of movement and find better employment prospects elsewhere) is for some kind of independent class based politics to emerge. This whole pick a side/clash of nationalisms discourse can only hamper that possibility.

I'm not entirely sure that 'open borders' is the ultimate solution to this crisis... and, even if that was the most desirable outcome, it would effectively amount (imho) to 'picking a side' - the EU side.

I think we'd all prefer to see the emergence of class based politics in the Ukraine and Russia, but in the meantime what do those with a class-based approach do on the ground?

 

[Diamond]

twat off back to your dead cities.

Ha!

So eloquent, so reasoned, so well put.

It´s a wonder that your arguments don´t ever carry the day.

 

[camouflage]

Ha!

So eloquent, so reasoned, so well put.

It´s a wonder that your arguments don´t ever carry the day.

Posting in this forum is ultimately a form of entertainment for me. There are even clowns, you for example.

 

[camouflage]

I'm not entirely sure that 'open borders' is the ultimate solution to this crisis... and, even if that was the most desirable outcome, it would effectively amount (imho) to 'picking a side' - the EU side.

I think we'd all prefer to see the emergence of class based politics in the Ukraine and Russia and the US UK and Europe, but in the meantime what do those with a class-based approach do on the ground?

Ffy.

 

[Diamond]

Posting in this forum is ultimately a form of entertainment for me. There are even clowns, you for example.

Would that not make you the child at the circus,willingly suspending disbelief while they lick their ice cream in amazement at the, perhaps, Russian contortionists and acrobats?

 

[DairyQueen]

I'm not entirely sure that 'open borders' is the ultimate solution to this crisis... and, even if that was the most desirable outcome, it would effectively amount (imho) to 'picking a side' - the EU side.

I think we'd all prefer to see the emergence of class based politics in the Ukraine and Russia, but in the meantime what do those with a class-based approach do on the ground?

For me, it is very difficult to work out exactly what is going on. Funnily enough, the British are now reporting the situation in Donetsk very differently today. Villagers intercepting tanks, etc. Sloviansk being defended by residents and not Russian soldiers. It seems like both the Ukrainian government and West do not understand the Donetsk region at all either.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-humiliation-as-protesters-disarm-troops.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27053500

Interestingly, the Telegraph are reporting this image as "an alleged sniper". I thought someone here claimed he was a communist?

 

[Delroy Booth]

Posting in this forum is ultimately a form of entertainment for me. There are even clowns, you for example.

You're an idiot and if you're over 21 I pity you. You can't say anything to anyone.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/16/uk-ukraine-crisis-idUKBREA3D0C420140416

Whatever the level of involvement Russia has (and they are involved don't kid yourselves) in all of this would it be fair to say that regardless the Kiev regime doesn't command any kind of consent in the eastern part of the country? And sending in armor instead of negotiating for a federal Ukraine doesn't appear to be working either. Tough position for Kiev this, I suspect they've got months of it to look forward to.

 

[toblerone3]

This thread has a lot of interesting information mixed in with a lot of beef. And its verr verr long.

 

[SpineyNorman]

How will freedom of movement benefit class-based politics though if you are saying that Donetsk is full of shit factories and it is better for them to leave that dump for Western Europe so they can do something efficient, like serve us some coffee and wipe up our puke on a temporary contract for minimum wage?

This is getting silly. I didn't say any of that. Either I'm not being clear or you're stupid.

I don't think either the EU or Russia holds the solution. I think what's important is that the shared interests of the Ukrainian working class (and for that matter the interests they share with the working class across the world) is emphasised.

But of course if you're to base your position on how trading blocs and alliances with other states might benefit or harm the interests of Ukrainian workers in the East why should the interests of those in the west (of Ukraine) be dismissed? Shouldn't you also ask why those in the west might favour EU integration? I was trying to subtly point to the ways in which such arguments prove divisive.

The stuff about it being a dump is all in your head - the industries are delapidated and haven't been properly invested in. That's not a chauvinist point to make, it's just a fact.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm not entirely sure that 'open borders' is the ultimate solution to this crisis... and, even if that was the most desirable outcome, it would effectively amount (imho) to 'picking a side' - the EU side.

Obviously I wasn't clear because I know you're not an idiot. I don't think the EU version of open borders is a solution. I was simply pointing out that the dependence of Eastern Ukraine on trade with Russia shouldn't be the only consideration if we're going to 'take sides' (which IMO we shouldn't) since there could be benefits for western Ukrainians on the other side. The point being that it's a divisive way of looking at things and can only add to (and must be one of the primary drivers for) the polarisation between pro-and anti-Russian nationalisms.

I think we'd all prefer to see the emergence of class based politics in the Ukraine and Russia, but in the meantime what do those with a class-based approach do on the ground?

Fuck knows. I'm glad I'm not in their position. But I think the starting point would be to emphasise the shared interests of eastern and western, 'ethnically Russian' and 'ethnically Ukrainian' workers in Ukraine. That's not going to be easy in the highly polarised society Ukraine is increasingly becoming.