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Ukraine

Casually Red said:
The US state department has admitted to reporters it is formulating these positions solely on the basis of what the junta in Kiev is telling them, and dont see any need for a corroborating third party.
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Stop.

Think.

What sources other than the current Kievan authorities would the US have? What kind of sources?

Is there any kind of source that is subject to a blanket ban of mention?

(I'm not arguing that the State Department is reporting the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; any more than I am arguing that Rossiya Tody is any more credible than a second-hand-car salesman with a crack habit. I'm not even assuming or arguing that the State Department would be trusted with, or mention publicly, the reports of, er, confidential sources. I'm arguing against stupidity.)
 
laptop said:
Stop.

Think.

What sources other than the current Kievan authorities would the US have? What kind of sources?

Is there any kind of source that is subject to a blanket ban of mention?

(I'm not arguing that the State Department is reporting the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; any more than I am arguing that Rossiya Tody is any more credible than a second-hand-car salesman with a crack habit. I'm not even assuming or arguing that the State Department would be trusted with, or mention publicly, the reports of, er, confidential sources. I'm arguing against stupidity.)
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I disagree. Russia is in the early stages of an existential threat driven by external forces that are implacably hostile. For the US and its flock, this is all just another adventure of choice.

Here's a question, which side is talking de-escalation, and which is ramping up the rhetoric to new heights?
 
I posted another of ethnic russians being seized on the streets at knifepoint by Ukrainian fascist patrols, knives held to their throats and being told theyd be killed.
The right sector , whose chants are of stabbing and killing russians and policy is a cleansed Banderite Ukraine, has ordered a full mobilisation of its forces to go into Russian areas.
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People probably were dismissive when Arkan and his thugs mobilised in the Balkan wars.
 
Brechin Sprout said:
You're joking, right?
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Oh god. When arguing against stupidity, it is necessary to spell every-thing out in words of one syl-lab-ble.

If Ukraine isn't riddled with spies, I'm a banana.

The NSA doesn't even need to crack Russian encryption: traffic analysis - who sends encrypted messages to whom - suffices.

Neither kind of source would ever be mentioned in public.

Same goes for Rossiya Today: the Russian secret services may well have evidence of US interference in Kiev but are never going to say what it is.
 
classicdish said:
... at the moment I tend towards believing that there *is* Russian campaign going on, alongside a more 'genuine' Ukranian protest. What the actual balance is between the two is I can't tell, I'd have to either be there myself or at least be able to speak the language.
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Alothough, you missed the whole point of my post and addressed something completely different, I do agree with this conclusion.

I think there is outragous cynicism and mendacity coming from both the EU/US and Russian camps, and ordinary Ukrainian people of all ethnicities are going to end up with the shit end of the stick regardless of the outcome of this particular power squabble.
 
J Ed said:
The US didn't even deny it either, just got upset that it was leaked
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I wasn't even talking about the leak, as it happens, but her discussion in a speech last December at a busines conference of 'investing' 5 billion dollars in Ukraine's 'European future'.
 
The operation against the pro-Russian rebels apparently began this morning.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/15/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/?hpt=hp_t2

(CNN)
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-- Ukraine's acting President Oleksandr Turchynov told the country's parliament Tuesday that an "anti-terrorist operation" is under way in part of Ukraine's eastern Donetsk region.

...

A CNN team in Kramatorsk, to the north of the Donetsk region, said police there appeared to have taken back control of a police headquarters building from pro-Russian activists.
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I guess we'll find out more about this in time.

e2a - more info from BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27035196

The acting President of Ukraine, Olexander Turchynov, has announced the start of an "anti-terrorist operation" against pro-Russian separatists.

The operation began in the "north of Donetsk Region", he told parliament, and was being conducted "stage by stage, in a responsible... manner".

Ukrainian armoured vehicles could be seen massing on Monday as separatist militants braced for an attack.

...

Militant protesters gathered outside parliament in the capital Kiev to demand action against the separatists.

After days when there was little sign of the Ukrainian government exerting its authority in eastern Ukraine, Tuesday saw a very public display of force at a checkpoint just north of the Donetsk region, in the Kharkiv region, the BBC's Daniel Sandford reports.

Our correspondent saw seven armoured personnel carriers, several tracked vehicles armed with large guns, a military helicopter and dozens of Ukrainian police officers.

There were reports overnight of gun attacks on rebel checkpoints near the Donetsk town of Sloviansk, where pro-Russian militants seized a police station and a security services building at the weekend.

A police building in Kramatorsk was also seized but the militants there have reportedly now handed back control to the police.
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On the second day of the self-styled People's Republic of Donetsk's existence, people gathered in the Regional Administration Building to discuss their new government and plans to join Russia. VICE News correspondent Simon Ostrovsky attended the meeting, where things got a bit heated, and later interviewed Serhiy Taruta, the current governor of the Donetsk region. Taruta argued that those who declared independence from Ukraine have no authority to do so and are not supported by most residents of Donetsk. There's still about a month left before the People's Republic of Donetsk's supposed referendum to join Russia, and the future of Donetsk remains uncertain.
 
sunny jim said:
Ever since Murdoch bought into Vice, my trust of it has plummeted. And as it happens no one voted for that Kiev appointed governing minister.
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I thought the guy in the clip did a pretty good job at remaining neutral, he asked people questions, showed both perspectives and refrained from editorialising.
 
8ball said:
I wasn't even talking about the leak, as it happens, but her discussion in a speech last December at a busines conference of 'investing' 5 billion dollars in Ukraine's 'European future'.
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Is that where the stupid "pouring billions into the Ukrainian opposition" came from?

Do posters have no idea of the circumstances in which a billion is chickenfeed (hint: Trident, Crossrail) and those in which it's ridiculous amount?

Mentions of "investment" in speeches are always lies. Translation: "Toe our line and we'll suggest to General Motors that they build a factory. (Though we know they can't.)"
 
laptop said:
Is that where the stupid "pouring billions into the Ukrainian opposition" came from?
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I'd guess that's one source but she makes reference to it in a casual 'non announcing' manner - the whole thing is easily Googled and is better for getting a sense of context.
 
heres what happened to one of th presidential candidates from eastern Ukraine when he turned up to a tv talk show in Kiev to debate with Timoshenko .

 
just watching the footage there . Tanks..proper ones...armoured carriers, Hind Gunships and even Mig fighters all moving in . Putin should have held onto them .
 
This sounds nuts. There definitely appears to have been a clash at an aerodrome in Kramatorsk. The peoples militia are saying theres 4 of their members dead and 2 wounded. Some eyewitnesses are claiming one of the Ukrainian jets has dropped bombs..not sure where. And theyre also claiming a Ukrainian jet has been shot down.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/728011

hard to tell if any of this is true at the moment as its just eyewitness reports and not confirmed. Theres also claims even more government buildings have been seized.

Andre Paruiby has also announced many of these troops going into eastern Ukraine are the new National Guard members. Comprised solely from the maidan rioters. Its likely therell be no shortage of enthusiasm from them as regards the task ahead of them.

http://rt.com/news/kiev-military-operation-east-584/
 
BBC is reporting heavy gunfire at the Airport, its awful, I'm no supporter of Kiev, but what could they do, now its the abysss.
 
A celler full of petrol and people playing with matches comes to mind :(

Tom clancys ghost has risen and is wanking itself senseless all we need now is dale browns super modified b52 and the new cold war is on :eek:
 
Casually Red said:
This sounds nuts. There definitely appears to have been a clash at an aerodrome in Kramatorsk. The peoples militia are saying theres 4 of their members dead and 2 wounded. Some eyewitnesses are claiming one of the Ukrainian jets has dropped bombs..not sure where. And theyre also claiming a Ukrainian jet has been shot down.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/728011

hard to tell if any of this is true at the moment as its just eyewitness reports and not confirmed. Theres also claims even more government buildings have been seized.

Andre Paruiby has also announced many of these troops going into eastern Ukraine are the new National Guard members. Comprised solely from the maidan rioters. Its likely therell be no shortage of enthusiasm from them as regards the task ahead of them.

http://rt.com/news/kiev-military-operation-east-584/
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Arkan lives...
 
laptop said:
Someone can decode the hairstyles?


Guards struggled with anti-separatist protesters outside the Ukrainian parliament in Kiev
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The Fifth Element? Missing out das Vierte Reich altogether.

5thElemernt.jpg
 
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