Ukraine

[Casually Red]

I believe them more than you because I find what they are saying more plausible.

Initially I thought that I didn't want to debate it *right now* (ie midnight) but have been persuaded to change my mind.

Go ahead and debate away!

well yeah, youve admitted the US state department are truthful and the Russians are liars already.

 

[classicdish]

My post was a direct cut-n-paste from the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/14/ukraine-deadline-withdraw-cities-approaches

Scroll down to 6.03pm

 

[classicdish]

Have we started debating any of the points yet?

 

[Casually Red]

The US state department has admitted to reporters it is formulating these positions solely on the basis of what the junta in Kiev is telling them, and dont see any need for a corroborating third party. So basically Classicdish is giing us the Kiev junta line. Uncritically.

 

[8ball]

My post was a direct cut-n-paste from the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/14/ukraine-deadline-withdraw-cities-approaches

Scroll down to 6.03pm

Fair enough - I can't find it now but I saw a form of wording earlier that was much stronger in terms of claiming there were definite veriable, known Russian agents that had been captured by the Ukrainian authorities (which would be really interesting to know, to me anyway). The US State dept report is a little weaker in terms of the claim.

 

[8ball]

The US state department has admitted to reporters it is formulating these positions solely on the basis of what the junta in Kiev is telling them, and dont see any need for a corroborating third party. So basically Classicdish is giing us the Kiev junta line. Uncritically.

That's the thing, I wasn't sure whether these are his actual thoughts or just a little unpaid propaganda work.

 

[classicdish]

The US state department has admitted to reporters it is formulating these positions solely on the basis of what the junta in Kiev is telling them, and dont see any need for a corroborating third party. So basically Classicdish is giing us the Kiev junta line. Uncritically.

Great introductary remarks, now on with the debate!

 

[classicdish]

That's the thing, I wasn't sure whether these are his actual thoughts or just a little unpaid propaganda work.

So what are you taking issue with?

Let's get down to specifics shall we?

 

[8ball]

So what are you taking issue with?

So which was it?

 

[J Ed]

The US state department has admitted to reporters it is formulating these positions solely on the basis of what the junta in Kiev is telling them, and dont see any need for a corroborating third party. So basically Classicdish is giing us the Kiev junta line. Uncritically.

Can't wait to hear more of Kerry's greatest hits like: there are no fascists in Kiev (Chemical Ali remix)

 

[classicdish]

So which was it?

I can't tell if any of these are 100% true, all I can say is how plausible and believeable I find them on balance.

You wanted to have a debate about these points. Which ones do you want to talk about?

 

[J Ed]

BTW did anyone see the US ambassador to the UN claiming that Russia was behind all of the anti-coup government uprisings on the basis that the anti-coup protesters had black and orange flags? Thank god that the state department finally got some vexillophiles, perhaps they might like to talk to Victoria Nuland...

 

[8ball]

I can't tell if any of these are 100% true, all I can say is how plausible and believeable I find them on balance.

You find them believable "on balance". So you think they are more plausible than something else.

How plausible do you think these claims are?

 

[Fez909]

Does anyone else think it's odd that we have a major geopolitical event taking place and all we have on Urban is one thread mostly taken up by a small handful of posters?

No. The format of this thread (and many others) is exclusive and discourages new posters.

1. Its length - when I see a thread like this, it puts me off. Should I start from the beginning and potentially never catch up, or just wade in at the end with a point which was refuted 53 posts back? Neither, usually. I'll just read it occasionally and miss out on participation.

2. Its title - I know it covers a lot of ground so any title would be out of date/inadequate now, but at least it would explain what thread was about to begin with. Related to this...

3. All information about a huge event contained in one thread - the Iraq war discussions had many more contributors because the threads were shorter, had descriptive titles and didn't take ages catch up on. Even if you didn't read all the previous threads, you saw their titles being bumped. You had some idea what going on, even if only superficially, and so you could join in further threads.

These huge compilation threads are good for 'as it happens' posts, but there are plenty of discussions going on within this thread which would best be suited to new threads. And then participation would increase, IMO.

 

[8ball]

No. The format of this thread (and many others) is exclusive and discourages new posters.

It's certainly got that way, though I don't recall Urban being so full of shrinking violets when the Iraq war was kicking off.

I do recall what happened to posters that uncritically spouted Us State Dept propaganda, mind.

 

[classicdish]

OK lets start with point 7

7. Russia claims: ethnic Russians in Ukraine are under threat.

There are no credible reports of ethnic Russians facing threats in Ukraine.

So since the end of February how many people have been murdered, arrested, disappered etc by the Yatsenyuk government? Where is the evidence of a wide-spread oppression/attack on ethnic Russians in Ukraine? Is this real or is it being made up by Russian media and government?

 

[classicdish]

You find them believable "on balance". So you think they are more plausible than something else.

How plausible do you think these claims are?

Be specific.

 

[8ball]

well yeah, youve admitted the US state department are truthful and the Russians are liars already.

My take on it so far is that there are liars on both sides. My take on things isn't liable to be terribly accurate but I'm dismayed by how so few even seem to give a fuck. Celebrity Cunts Dancing threads get more throughput than this.

 

[Fez909]

It's certainly got that way, though I don't recall Urban being so full of shrinking violets when the Iraq war was kicking off.

I do recall what happened to posters that uncritically spouted Us State Dept propaganda, mind.

I'm not sure if you understood what I was getting at, or whether you just ignored it/disagree, but I never made any claim to shrinking violets and I don't think that's the case.

Can't be arsed does not equal scared.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I find it more believable than what CR has been posting

I'm certainly no fan of RT, Putin, or his actions surrounding this but I'm no more inclined to believe this than I am them. To put it very mildly indeed the US state department has a tendency to be economical with the truth. At least CR believes what he's posting, even if we don't agree. I can respect that. I have no respect whatsoever for those cunts and they have zero credibility in my eyes.

 

[8ball]

Be specific.

Ok, point 7 I'm unsure about. I was interested in point 1 but it is worded quite weakly and could mean a few things.

How about point 2 - so the EuroMaidan movement was grassroots and not funded at all by US government bodies. Discuss.

 

[classicdish]

I'm certainly no fan of RT, Putin, or his actions surrounding this but I'm no more inclined to believe this than I am them. To put it very mildly indeed the US state department has a tendency to be economical with the truth. At least CR believes what he's posting, even if we don't agree. I can respect that. I have no respect whatsoever for those cunts and they have zero credibility in my eyes.

Do you have anything to say about any of the 10 points/claims versus counter-claims themselves?

 

[8ball]

I'm not sure if you understood what I was getting at, or whether you just ignored it/disagree, but I never made any claim to shrinking violets and I don't think that's the case.

Can't be arsed does not equal scared.

Fair enough - maybe I misread something you said too. There's certainly room for more than one thread about something like this. So why isn't there more than one thread? I remember with Iraq we had rolling updates, debates about WMD likelihood/ David Kelly / US Government output / a heap of them about Blair.

Here we have one tumbleweed thread. It's puzzling.

 

[J Ed]

Do you have anything to say about any of the 10 points/claims versus counter-claims themselves?

Most of your 10 claims could be thrown back at Brussels and DC. I'm not about to argue that the Russian Kleptocracy is morally superior to the American government, the EU or the British government but frankly they have been incredibly restrained compared to what would happen if a similar scenario was being played out in the Americas or Western Europe.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Do you have anything to say about any of the 10 points/claims versus counter-claims themselves?

Not at half past midnight when I'm about to go to bed, no. Other than that the state dept can't possibly know the veracity of some of those claims and must be depending on the Kiev government - who I probably trust slightly less than a crack addict asking me to borrow a tenner. I might return to it in the morning if I can be arsed but I might not. Their statements reflect more closely US interests than they do the truth - some of what they say may sometimes be true but that's purely coincidental.

What about it do you find convincing and why?

 

[8ball]

Not at half past midnight when I'm about to go to bed, no. Other than that the state dept can't possibly know the veracity of some of those claims and must be depending on the Kiev government - who I probably trust slightly less than a crack addict asking me to borrow a tenner.

It's very like the run-up to Iraq in that sense. The Kiev interim government will have learned the lessons from that too - tell the US what they most want to hear.

Point 2 is clearly farcical on any level.

 

[Casually Red]

OK lets start with point 7


So since the end of February how many people have been murdered, arrested, disappered etc by the Yatsenyuk government? Where is the evidence of a wide-spread oppression/attack on ethnic Russians in Ukraine? Is this real or is it being made up by Russian media and government?

well the problem for the Yatsenyuk government appears to be that the local security forces dont seem all that keen on following his orders and suppressing ethnic Russians . He keeps ordering them to do it and they keep fucking off and joining the other side. He simply didnt get the opportunity to do it in Crimea either. The point is though he keeps ordering them to do it.
But hundreds have been arrested, 70 in one incident alone. All Ukrainian nationals and no Russians among them. Leaders of the first wave of protests have almost all been arrested .


Ive seen with my own eyes ethnic russian deputies getting the shit kicked out of them if they get up and speak in the Ukrainian parliament. Coup loyalists have shot ethnic Russians dead during demonstrations in Kharkov, killing 2 outright and injuring about 20. Neo nazis , some heavily armed, have filmed themselves walking into council meetings and forcing elected officials to resign en masse, beat up and forced the head of the TV station to sign his resignation for broadcasting Putins speech. Ive posted videos here of ethnic Russians , mostly pensioners, being attacked by a mob in broad daylight while police looked on . I posted another of ethnic russians being seized on the streets at knifepoint by Ukrainian fascist patrols, knives held to their throats and being told theyd be killed.
The right sector , whose chants are of stabbing and killing russians and policy is a cleansed Banderite Ukraine, has ordered a full mobilisation of its forces to go into Russian areas.

And because of Yatsenyuks forces inability and refusal to do it up to now hes announced the setting up of new forces in order to do it. So, yeah Russians are perfectly entitled to feel under serious threat. they dont need to listen to the Russian government, they only need to listen to the one in kiev

 

[classicdish]

Ok, point 7 I'm unsure about. I was interested in point 1 but it is worded quite weakly and could mean a few things.

How about point 2 - so the EuroMaidan movement was grassroots and not funded at all by US government bodies. Discuss.

OK so here is the full state department text for point 2

2. Russia Claims: Pro-Russia demonstrations are comprised exclusively of Ukrainian citizens acting of their own volition, like the Maidan movement in Kyiv.

Fact: This is not the grassroots Ukrainian civic activism of the EuroMaidan movement, which grew from a handful of student protestors to hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from all parts of the country and all walks of life. Russian internet sites openly are recruiting volunteers to travel from Russia to Ukraine and incite violence. There is evidence that many of these so-called “protesters” are paid for their participation in the violence and unrest. It is clear that these incidents are not spontaneous events, but rather part of a well-orchestrated Russian campaign of incitement, separatism, and sabotage of the Ukrainian state. Ukrainian authorities continue to arrest highly trained and well-equipped Russian provocateurs operating across the region.

I have seen large numbers of reports and video evidence supporting the claim about "hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from all parts of the country and all walks of life". I don't see how 'US funding' would have made ordinary Ukrainians come out on the streets if they didn't actually want to. I haven't seen any real explanation about how any funding actually made any difference in EuroMaiden, just a generalised claim about it existing.

I have read several reports about Russian websites for example this from the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-26435333

As for the central claim about "a well-orchestrated Russian campaign" - I have to admit that there is still a lack of definite 'proof', for example the identities of the Russians they have arrested, actual confessions, other 'smoking gun' type evidence, so it comes down to two competeing claims and which one you are more inclined to believe. Having seen what happened in Crimea and the Russian modus operandum there however makes me very suspicious of what is happening now in eastern Ukraine.

So this point to me is still unproven, but at the moment I tend towards believing that there *is* Russian campaign going on, alongside a more 'genuine' Ukranian protest. What the actual balance is between the two is I can't tell, I'd have to either be there myself or at least be able to speak the language.

 

[classicdish]

Ive seen with my own eyes ethnic russian deputies getting the shit kicked out of them if they get up and speak in the Ukrainian parliament. Coup loyalists have shot ethnic Russians dead during demonstrations in Kharkov, killing 2 outright and injuring about 20. Neo nazis , some heavily armed, have filmed themselves walking into council meetings and forcing elected officials to resign en masse, beat up and forced the head of the TV station to sign his resignation for broadcasting Putins speech. Ive posted videos here of ethnic Russians , mostly pensioners, being attacked by a mob in broad daylight while police looked on . I posted another of ethnic russians being seized on the streets at knifepoint by Ukrainian fascist patrols, knives held to their throats and being told theyd be killed.

I've been reading the stuff you've posted here on this thread which covers all the things you've mentioned above and it seems that pretty much all of these have been fights between political groupings / activists. You mention two dead - weren't they shot while smashing their way into a Right Sector office? There have also been people killed by pro-Russian forces in Crimea and now also Eastern Ukraine.

But this doesn't equal a general threat against ethnic Russians.

Also frankly if your examples are the worst the Yatsenyuk government and/or Right Sector have done in the last five weeks then I can't take this 'Nazi Junta' bollocks seriously at all. The Right Sector may *claim* a large membership and *claim* it is 'mobilising' to head east, but where is that actual evidence for either of these things? Last time I saw a video of them was a bunch of what looked like teenager wannabes getting frog-marched out of their HQ in Kiev last week and a very small group getting pissed off when one of their leaders who got shot, making threats but then not doing very much at all.

 

[camouflage]

Article on UN Emergency Meeting held yesterday:

Russian ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin said: “Further escalation must be swiftly stopped.” He stated: “It is the West that will determine the opportunity to avoid civil war in Ukraine. Some people, including in this chamber, do not want to see the real reasons for what is happening in Ukraine and are constantly seeing the hand of Moscow in what is going on. Enough. That is enough.”

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/04/14/ukra-a14.html