Ukraine

[Casually Red]

without being rude, the US has 'thrown' 18 fighters, one warship, and some tankers into this 'mix'. Russia has kept a mobilised force of around 150,000 men on or near the Ukranian border.

theres one country wagging its dick around, and its Russia.

weres your proof of this massive force..thats more than tripled in size today compared to what the US were claiming just days ago. That they still had no proof of .

you arent being rude, your just talking bollocks

 

[J Ed]

without being rude, the US has 'thrown' 18 fighters, one warship, and some tankers into this 'mix'. Russia has kept a mobilised force of around 150,000 men on or near the Ukranian border.

theres one country wagging its dick around, and its Russia.

 

[Casually Red]

Without being rude, so it's 150,000 now? Thought it was 40,000. How ever many, they are in Russia where they belong. I haven't seen any reports of Putin making loud announcements about how much hardware he's going to move up to the border. The Russians have however offered the Ukraine sight on what's happening on their side of the border apparently. Can't say what the situation is with that now... we get so little factual news of events here in the West (or Earth probably, to be fair, why should power tell you what the fuck's going on).

the ukrainian military themselves claimed ten thousand russian troops were near the border, and that force was itself de escalating. And theyve actually taken the trouble to go have a look.
And nobodys seen this massive force of 140,000 soldiers moving into position. Absolutely nobody.

 

[classicdish]

the ukrainian military themselves claimed ten thousand russian troops were near the border,

No they didn't

 

[Casually Red]

yeah yeah yeah

 

[hipipol]

Listen up children
You cant trust the Yanks
You cant trust the Russians
Soaking up and re-spouting either sides bollocks is just that, bollocks
Putin at the moment is wearing the Black Hat - ie is the baddy
The Yanks are stirring the pot like the vile parasites they are
They are wearing the Black Hat already anyway as they slaughter children by remote control from Texas
NO ONE has a White Hat
There are NO good guys here
Stop bigging up the brutal power of the Killer States
This is Not one of your fucking video games
People die

 

[Casually Red]

never trust a hippy

 

[goldenecitrone]

Thats why Im calling for nuclear tests.

 

[camouflage]

I actually dont think they will. They tend not to . They seem intent on pushing this to the wire and over it.

if you listen to the very strident line theyre taking in the UN today theyre insisting these protests are purely a result of Russian instigation, the work of Russian provocatuers and agents and solely Russias doing. According to them no protest in Ukraine is legitimate and no protestor is legitimate .Theyre firstly deliberately building a diplomatic tower they cant back down from , very deliberately. They wont be retreating from that position because theyre deliberately ensuring they cant beforehand.

Remember the absolute lunatic coming out with this stuff almost assaulted the Russian ambassador to the UN just weeks ago . Shes a fanatic, unhinged . And the foreign policy shes enunciating is drafted by the PNAC lunatics that colonise the US state department, the same people who brought us one disaster after another .

Theyre clearly identifying civilian protestors as their enemy....while sitting alongside a junta staffed by neo nazis that has repeatedly called them terrorists and sworn to launch all out military assaults on them , and indeed has already tried but the people they send out to do it keep resigning and defecting. Theyre sending in the US military assets to reassure the junta as it prepares to launch a maniac ethnic offensive against terrorists . Something they neglected to do with the tie muncher who was left hanging when Putin reacted speedily , decisively and unexpectedly .

Their military back up is a direct and open encouragement for the junta and the fascists to commit a bloodbath, that could start any second . And what they are doing here is very plainly laying the political and diplomatic ground in advance to place the blame for all deaths on Russia, and not their junta puppets. They arent calling for calm on all sides as Ukraine stands on the brink, theyre openly egging the junta on while providing the military and diplomatic back up for the junta to do its worst. Russia will be blamed no matter what, the USA and its allies and all their tame media will see to that.

Thats why Im calling for nuclear tests. Because the only thing likely to bring sense to this situation is scaring the fuck out of people sufficiently to stop their Russia bashing and start calling for immediate de escalation. Because the USA and its allies are plainly in full on confrontation mode here and nobody is saying stop.

Scary, disturbing, bleak. However nuclear tests won't help, it would merely be a feast of fear and hatred for the Sith lords in the US administration to gorge on. If the War On Terror has tought us anything, it's that these people get what they want through terror. This is a real and bitter lesson people in Nigeria are learning now (suspicious how Boko Haram seem to provide the US with all the excuse it needs to involve itself in the situation... anyway, I digress).

So far despite all the hysteria and hypocrisy, Putin's has remained composed and measure. Thank fuck someone seems to know what they're doing. Would prefer it if the leadership of my country were that someone, but alas... as usual "yap yap, wag wag, bark bark" plus fetus face.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Thats why Im calling for nuclear tests. Because the only thing likely to bring sense to this situation is scaring the fuck out of people sufficiently to stop their Russia bashing and start calling for immediate de escalation. Because the USA and its allies are plainly in full on confrontation mode here and nobody is saying stop.

Yes, I can see the logic there. A fucking massive escalation on the part of Russia (and one that could have consequences to terrible to even contemplate) is bound to de-escalate things.

Shit the bed!

 

[Casually Red]

they dont like it up em

 

[elbows]

Does anyone else think it's odd that we have a major geopolitical event taking place and all we have on Urban is one thread mostly taken up by a small handful of posters?

I've got a whole bunch of potential reasons for that:

The u75 world politics forum isn't quite what it was even a few years ago. Probably numerous reasons for this which I won't speculate on at length right now. But at least in part due to a bunch of specific people who used to participate in these sorts of threads being gone.

The world got less stable and messier than was often the case in earlier internet years. Even the Bush-Blair War on Terror years, bloody as they were, were 'neater' and a more orderly unleashing of events, with a simpler set of narratives/sides to choose from. Subsequent years events including the financial crisis, arab springs etc are far more nuanced and potentially bewildering.

Given that it often seems like more words were thrown around about the Iraq war than the entire combination of all other major international events that since followed, I would hazard a guess that threads will get greater participation when there are more people out there who can go into the debate with at least some partial certainties in their mind, enough to take a stance and argue a particular position. But thats easier said than done with a subject like this, and I'll return to this point in a follow-up post to explain properly why.

It's not brand new news anymore.

We haven't established a load of great, fascinating sources of information in english from Ukraine, from a side we in some way trust or respect, that is mostly independent of the games the big powers are playing and the propaganda they are spouting.

Some are probably turned off by the direction this thread has taken in recent weeks. This isn't simply a criticism of those who have repeatedly taken it in that direction though, the fact the thread has turned out this way is a reflection of how events and the news/propaganda has gone too. Its too bloody convenient for Russia to make this all about fighting fascists and protecting Russian speakers. And certainly convenient for the new regime in Ukraine and its allies in the west to turn attention towards Russia, and for any citizens who are against the new government to be hidden from view by the phenomenon of branding them 'Russian agents'.

More to say but have dribbled on too much as usual so will have to continue another day.

 

[Casually Red]

Scary, disturbing, bleak. However nuclear tests won't help, it would merely be a feast of fear and hatred for the Sith lords in the US administration to gorge on. If the War On Terror has tought us anything, it's that these people get what they want through terror. This is a real and bitter lesson people in Nigeria are learning now (suspicious how Boko Haram seem to provide the US with all the excuse it needs to involve itself in the situation... anyway, I digress).

So far despite all the hysteria and hypocrisy, Putin's has remained composed and measure. Thank fuck someone seems to know what they're doing. Would prefer it if the leadership of my country were that someone, but alas... as usual "yap yap, wag wag, bark bark" plus fetus face.

im starting to think the juntas own military might have told them to fuck off here. The second deadline has well passed and now the junta , unbelievably,are openly calling on the United nations troops to assist them in their military offensive .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...4bc1fa-c3bb-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html

With pro-Russian militants attacking more buildings in eastern Ukraine Monday and ignoring a government deadline to disperse, Ukraine’s acting president said he would welcome United Nations peacekeepers to help establish order by conducting a “joint counterterrorist operation” with Ukrainian forces.

that is absolutely mad.

The Russians have been making direct appeals to the Ukrainian military itself not to obey criminal orders. And from the sounds of that its what could well be happening. Kiev pretty much admitting through making this desperate public appeal theres question marks over the legality of what theyre ordering their forces to do and seeking to have them bolstered both numerically and legally from outside. As those question marks over the legality plainly havent arisen from the united states and its allies, my suspicion is the legality is being questioned from within its own forces. Who despite 2 much trumpetted deadlines still havent gone on the offensive, and seem to defect everytime they get the order .
The pro junta forces definitely have made some attempts to move but theyve been piss poor so far and swatted aside . The second deadline has yielded little except more protests and more police stations seized. A third deadline would carry the air of the ridiculous at this point.

and speaking of the ridiculous this headline and choice sequence of photos is one reason I love RT

that awkward moment

http://rt.com/news/yatsenyuk-flag-switzerland-denmark-400/


somehow I dont see this bunch outwitting Putin any time soon .

 

[8ball]

im starting to think the juntas own military might have told them to fuck off here.

I'm thinking you may have a point there, or at least that there isn't enough consensus in the Ukraine military for anyone to act first with confidence that their comrades will be behind them.

 

[Casually Red]

worth noting this about NATO chief Foghs Rasmussen, whos been the main culprit making the claims about Russian troop build ups and satellite imagery.

Rasmussen said some 40,000 Russian troops were massed along Ukraine's borders "not training but ready for combat."
"We have seen the satellite images day after day. Russia is stirring up ethnic tensions in eastern Ukraine and provoking unrest. And Russia is using its military might to dictate that Ukraine should become a federal, neutral state. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/10/nato-russia-troops-ukraine_n_5123887.html

it needs to be remembered he has a bit of form, from back when he was part of the co alition of the willing and ordering Danish troops into the Iraq quagmire

Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know. Iraq has itself admitted that it has had mustard gas, nerve gas, anthrax, but Saddam won't disclose. He won't tell us where and how these weapons have been destroyed. We know this from the UN inspectors, so there is no doubt in my mind.


Anyone using that clown as their source for Russian troop levels, and then sneering at RT into the bargain, needs to have a word with themselves.

 

[J Ed]

I think it's astonishing how many people there are who propagandised before and during the Iraq War that we allow to say more than a word without calling them a liar

 

[classicdish]

This from the Guardian today (edited version of US state department statement http://m.state.gov/md224759.htm )

1. Russia claims: Russian agents are not active in Ukraine.

The Ukrainian government has arrested more than a dozen suspected Russian intelligence agents in recent weeks, many of whom were armed at the time of arrest.

2. Russia claims: pro-Russia demonstrations are comprised exclusively of Ukrainian citizens acting of their own volition, like the Maidan movement in Kiev.

This is not the grassroots Ukrainian civic activism of the EuroMaidan movement, which grew from a handful of student protesters to hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from all parts of the country and all walks of life. Russian internet sites openly are recruiting volunteers to travel from Russia to Ukraine and incite violence.

3. Russia claims: separatist leaders in eastern Ukraine enjoy broad popular support.

The recent demonstrations in eastern Ukraine are not organic and lack wide support in the region. A large majority of Donetsk residents (65.7%) want to live in a united Ukraine and reject unification with Russia.

4. Russia claims: the situation in eastern Ukraine risks spiraling into civil war.

What is going on in eastern Ukraine would not be happening without Russian disinformation and provocateurs fostering unrest. It would not be happening if a large Russian military force were not massed on the border, destabilising the situation through their overtly threatening presence.

5. Russia claims: Ukrainians in Donetsk rejected the illegitimate authorities in Kiev and established the independent “People’s Republic of Donetsk”.

A broad and representative collection of civil society and non-governmental organisations in Donetsk categorically rejected the declaration of a “People’s Republic of Donetsk” by the small number of separatists occupying the regional administration building.

6. Russia claims: Russia ordered a “partial drawdown” of troops from the Ukrainian border.

No evidence shows significant movement of Russian forces away from the Ukrainian border.

7. Russia claims: ethnic Russians in Ukraine are under threat.

There are no credible reports of ethnic Russians facing threats in Ukraine.

8. Russia claims: Ukraine’s new government is led by radical nationalists and fascists.

The Ukrainian parliament (Rada) did not change in February. It is the same Rada that was elected by all Ukrainians, comprising all of the parties that existed prior to February’s events, including former president Yanukovych’s Party of Regions. The new government, approved by an overwhelming majority in the parliament – including many members of Yanukovych’s former party – is committed to protecting the rights of all Ukrainians, including those in Crimea.

9. Russia claims: ethnic minorities face persecution in Ukraine from the “fascist” government in Kiev.

Leaders of Ukraine’s Jewish as well as German, Czech and Hungarian communities have all publicly expressed their sense of safety under the new authorities in Kiev.

10. Russia claims: Russia is not using energy and trade as weapons against Ukraine.

Following Russia’s illegal annexation and occupation of Crimea, Russia raised the price Ukraine pays for natural gas by 80% in the past two weeks. In addition, it is seeking more than $11bn in back payments following its abrogation of the 2010 Kharkiv accords.

 

[8ball]

This from the Guardian today (edited version of US state department statement http://m.state.gov/md224759.htm )... <snip>

How muh of that would you personally support?

 

[Casually Red]

I think it's astonishing how many people there are who propagandised before and during the Iraq War that we allow to say more than a word without calling them a liar

i also think its astonishing how many there are who forget that, forget the same about Libya, forget the same about Serbia and regard the likes of the BBC as a reputable news source while pouring scorn on RT. Whove had a senior presenter strongly criticise Russias actions , unlike that craven lot.

Im astonished still further that some of them see fit to even tag another 100,000 russian troops onto Mr we do not think ,we know Rasmussens ballsology . It seems not so much theyre easily led, but very willing to be led .

 

[classicdish]

How muh of that would you personally support?

I find it more believable than what CR has been posting

 

[8ball]

I find it more believable than what CR has been posting

That doesn't answer the question in any meaningful way.

Though it does appear to betray a naive strand of binary thinking.

 

[classicdish]

That doesn't answer the question in any meaningful way.

Though it does appear to betray a naive strand of binary thinking.

I don't want to go through in detail what I think of that list point-by-point right now, I'll just say that for me all of those US state department claims right more true to me than the Russian claims they are debunking.

You asked if I 'personally support' them which isn't the same thing. To do that I'd have to have access to a lot more information than I have and be willing to spend a lot more time going over everything than I want to. I would also then be sucked into a massive and endless debate here which I also don't really feel like either.

 

[8ball]

I don't want to go through in detail what I think of that list point-by-point right now, I'll just say that for me all of those US state department claims right more true to me than the Russian claims they are debunking.

You asked if I 'personally support' them which isn't the same thing. To do that I'd have to have access to a lot more information than I have and be willing to spend a lot more time going over everything than I want to. I would also then be sucked into a massive and endless debate here which I also don't really feel like either.

So you didn't want to debate anything, just wanted to make sure we knew what the US State Department's unbiased appraisal of events was?

 

[classicdish]

So you didn't want to debate anything, just wanted to make sure we knew what the US State Department's unbiased appraisal of events was?

OK, you convinced me.

What points do you want to debate?

 

[8ball]

What points do you want to debate?

Which ones are you endorsing?

Although the first point is interesting.

 

[classicdish]

For the sake of argument - all of them.

 

[Casually Red]

I don't want to go through in detail what I think of that list point-by-point right now, I'll just say that for me all of those US state department claims right more true to me than the Russian claims they are debunking.

You asked if I 'personally support' them which isn't the same thing. To do that I'd have to have access to a lot more information than I have and be willing to spend a lot more time going over everything than I want to. I would also then be sucked into a massive and endless debate here which I also don't really feel like either.

so you believe the US state department essentially because your pro United states, anti Russian and dont like me. And posting their output as fact , and saying you wont be debating any of it.

excellent input

you are Tony Blair and I claim my ten pounds.

 

[classicdish]

so you believe the US state department essentially because your pro United states, anti Russian and dont like me. And posting their output as fact , and saying you wont be debating any of it.

I believe them more than you because I find what they are saying more plausible.

Initially I thought that I didn't want to debate it *right now* (ie midnight) but have been persuaded to change my mind.

Go ahead and debate away!

 

[8ball]

For the sake of argument - all of them.

Point 1 interests me because I remember seeing a subtly different wording when it was reported in the Guardian - do you have the link to that handy?

 

[8ball]

I believe them more than you because I find what they are saying more plausible.

Yes, but depending on what you think of what CR is saying that doesn't necessarily mean you believe them at all.