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Casually Red said:
you were coming out with posts dismissing the questioning of a Russian military build up , and pointing out youd been inside their bases . Repeatedly . You were dismissing cristicism of NATOs claims while bigging yourself and your dismissals up by poiting to your experience in the field .
If you arent trying to claim some knowlege then you wouldnt be repeateldy referring to your expertise on what goes on inside russian military bases in opposition to a rejection of NATOs claims .Its perfectly clear what your at , as well as your insistence on derailing the thread with this fucking tedium .
The threads not about you .
I suggest you either provide some information as regards the subject at hand or just give over . Youve took up half the page with your personal background by this stage .

fell free to have the last word btw
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I was dismissing the ability of reporters to actually gain any evidence under the present circumstances, based on my experiences. Experiences you have obviously never had. Any repetition on my side is entirely due to the (deliberate) misinterpretation of my posts.
I have never claimed to be an expert in anything.
Ah fuck it got a busy day tomorrow, go fuck yerself there's a good chap!
 
classicdish said:
@CR - what is the source of your evidence about troop levels near the Ukraine border? How many troops are there?
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if you were paying attention...although I admit its almost impossible due to the amount of derailing, grandtsanding and outright trolling...youd have seen its already been posted . Its the Ukrainian military


"In recent days, the Russian forces have been gradually withdrawing from the border," said the spokesman for the Ukrainian defence ministry's general staff, Oleksiy Dmytrashkivskiy.

Dmytro Tymchuk, an analyst at Kiev's Centre for Military and Political Studies, said his sources believed Russia had only 10,000 soldiers remaining there as of Monday morning.


http://www.france24.com/en/20140331-russia-gradually-withdrawing-troops-ukraine-border/

And that analysis results from the little reported fact that Russia has invited Ukrainian military observers onto its territory and permitted Ukrainian aerial reconaissance of troop levels as well .

And Ive also pointed out..to those who were paying attention...the satellite imagery NATO has released to bolster its claims is according to their own data about a month old , when a Russian military exercise was winding down at the beginning of march . While the Russians themselves claim its from 8 months ago .

And also the Russian handover of tanks, missiles and jets to the Ukrainian armed forces some weeks back also doesnt suggest theyre enaging in military threats against the very same people . Kind of defeats the purpose .
 
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DairyQueen said:
I never said that parts of Ukraine should be given to Russia. I never even implied it.
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That's not what I'm accusing you of.

You said:
"The problem is that if you truly let the people decide, the solution to Ukrainian problems could well be partition and fragmentation."
Which comes across as "if we let the Ukrainians exercise democracy, fragmentation and partition could happen", hence my reply. You're saying that Ukrainians can't be trusted to do "the right thing".
 
DairyQueen said:
Give me names, or give me some examples. Who is a Russophile? You are suggesting large numbers of people explicitly have an alignment to the Russian state and their interests.
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No, I'm suggesting that those in positions of power may have those in their midst whose interests align, and that those with power can often manipulate public opinion (Bernays-style) to fall in behind them

So, is a Donetsk resident that works in a factory that is heavily reliant on cheap Russian gas a Russophile if he wants unification with Russia in order to keep his/her job?
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No, he's a pragmatist.

Is a guy living in Ukraine with a family across the border in Russia and wants closer ties with the Russian state a Russophile?
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Why would he want those ties, rather than primarily to his family?

Is an oligarch who relies on cheap Russian gas but does not necessarily want unification with Russia? Are these groups the same as communists who are promoting working-class solidarity that might be used by the Russian state?

The term is meaningless, it certainly has no relation to Russophobia which is well defined and observable (see next comment).
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Interesting attempt at differentiation, but as meaningless as you term my differentiation to be.
 
Casually Red said:
Ukraine was exercising its right to self determination and as a result found itself victim of a western backed coup/ You didnt strike me as particularly bothered by that.

eta

you seem to be arguing here that the coup is actually an expression of Ukrainian self determination, and the Russian refusal to acknowlege it as legitimate is somehow putting the heavy hand on Ukrainian self determination. While making an obligatory nod to western pressure being present as if its an equivalence.
When the root of this crisis lies in western brinkmanship and take it or leave it ultimatums followed by a coup when the ultimatum was rejected. While Russia called for a tripartite negotiated solution were everyone wins.

Russia is under no obligation im aware of to give Ukraine heavily discounted energy supplies while theres no trade agreements in place or likely to be in place. Asking them to actually pay their bills for Russian gas isnt exactly beyond the pale. Nor is taking the position that if trade agreements with Russia are in the bin then so are the generous discounts that accompany them.

Russia consistently proposed compromises to see all interests taken into account . It was the west that refused to countenance compromise or permit Ukraine to seek seek compromises that would be in its instersts . Thats completely absent from your analysis so we can only assume that blindness is wilful and ergo down to one bias or another. Or a host of such bias, who knows. But the wilful blindness is inescapable.
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Nice job repeatedly ignoring where I've had a go at Western interference. Well done!

By the way, Scooby, do a bit of research into the gas price issue. Do the maths. Perhaps you might lift the blinkers on a bit more "wilful blindness".
 
J Ed said:
RT has a live feed of the siege of the pro-Russian protesters. Killed and injured on both sides apparently http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/
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It definitely seems to be kicking off now . There was some pro Kiev arsehole being interviewed on the BBC there a few minutes ago and even he was admitting most of the local cops, SBU and their commanders have either defected or are refusing to take Kievs orders. So this appears to be an offensive coming solely from the coup forces in Kiev and western Ukraine . Whats very worrying about that is yesterday Dmitri Yarosh ordererd a full mobilisation of the neo nazi forces to move on eastern Ukraine . The reports on RT are asserting that his people are among the armed men attacking and beseiging .
Far-right Right Sector party leader Dmitry Yarosh has called his supporters to mobilize and get ready to take decisive steps to ‘defend Ukraine’s sovereignty’. He urged the security forces not to interfere but help the nationalists restore ‘legal order’.

In an online video on the Right Sector Youtube page Yarosh “commanded all arms of the Right Sector to fully mobilize and get ready to take decisive steps to defend Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.”

“I call upon the Ukrainian security forces not only to refrain from counteracting the Right Sector, but also help [the party members] to bring legal order to the Ukrainian land,” he said.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-nationalist-call-mobilization-184/

Saw some footage there on RT and theres one of these peoples militia guys who was manning a checkpoint looking very dead with bullet holes in his chest slumped against a vehicle thats riddled with bullet holes, lot of blood .Other wounded lying near him. Kalashnikov in his lap . According to the facebook page of the Interior Minister guy Arsen Arkov one SBU member has also been killed . And the commander of the SBUs anti terrorist unit has also been wounded with a number of others. Hind helicopter gunships are also circling the beseiged town .

So it looks like this could get very nasty indeed .
 
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ViolentPanda said:
Nice job repeatedly ignoring where I've had a go at Western interference. Well done!

By the way, Scooby, do a bit of research into the gas price issue. Do the maths. Perhaps you might lift the blinkers on a bit more "wilful blindness".
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not at all, ive clearly referred to the manner in which youve insisted its an equivalence to Russias reaction to the coup . Either you havent even read the post youve quoted or its just more wilful blindness .
 
ViolentPanda said:
That's not what I'm accusing you of.

You said:
"The problem is that if you truly let the people decide, the solution to Ukrainian problems could well be partition and fragmentation."
Which comes across as "if we let the Ukrainians exercise democracy, fragmentation and partition could happen", hence my reply. You're saying that Ukrainians can't be trusted to do "the right thing".
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A unilateral declaration would be unconstitutional and the Ukrainian government have made it clear they will enforce the constitution. It is forbidden in the Ukrainian constitution for a region to leave without the approval of all Ukrainians. What I am saying is that the Ukrainian constitution forbids the fragmentation of Ukraine even though it may be the case that the central government might not be able to identify and promote interests of every region simultaneously.
 
ViolentPanda said:
No, I'm suggesting that those in positions of power may have those in their midst whose interests align, and that those with power can often manipulate public opinion (Bernays-style) to fall in behind them
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You're getting in a muddle. So Russophiles are now groups of people in Ukraine whose interests might be manipulated by the Russian state? Again, this seems to be anyone who is not a (pretty extreme) Ukrainian nationalist.

ViolentPanda said:
Interesting attempt at differentiation, but as meaningless as you term my differentiation to be.
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No-one, except maybe Casually Red, is saying that anyone who has allegiance to a Ukrainian state as opposed to a Russian one is a Russophobe. Russophobia is about general negative attitudes toward Russians and the Russian state, there are many examples of this. Likewise, there are many example of Ukrainophobia (that Ukraine is not a real country, Ukrainians are hicks from the farmlands, etc). To suggest the antithesis to Russophobia are "those.. whose interests [may happen to] align" with the Russian state is an extreme position to take.
 
Casually Red said:
It definitely seems to be kicking off now . There was some pro Kiev arsehole being interviewed on the BBC there a few minutes ago and even he was admitting most of the local cops, SBU and their commanders have either defected or are refusing to take Kievs orders. So this appears to be an offensive coming solely from the coup forces in Kiev and western Ukraine . Whats very worrying about that is yesterday Dmitri Yarosh ordererd a full mobilisation of the neo nazi forces to move on eastern Ukraine . The reports on RT are asserting that his people are among the armed men attacking and beseiging .
Far-right Right Sector party leader Dmitry Yarosh has called his supporters to mobilize and get ready to take decisive steps to ‘defend Ukraine’s sovereignty’. He urged the security forces not to interfere but help the nationalists restore ‘legal order’.

In an online video on the Right Sector Youtube page Yarosh “commanded all arms of the Right Sector to fully mobilize and get ready to take decisive steps to defend Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.”

“I call upon the Ukrainian security forces not only to refrain from counteracting the Right Sector, but also help [the party members] to bring legal order to the Ukrainian land,” he said.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-nationalist-call-mobilization-184/

Saw some footage there on RT and theres one of these peoples militia guys who was manning a checkpoint looking very dead with bullet holes in his chest slumped against a vehicle thats riddled with bullet holes, lot of blood .Other wounded lying near him. Kalashnikov in his lap . According to the facebook page of the Interior Minister guy Arsen Arkov one SBU member has also been killed . And the commander of the SBUs anti terrorist unit has also been wounded with a number of others. Hind helicopter gunships are also circling the beseiged town .

So it looks like this could get very nasty indeed .
Click to expand...


So, the Fash are finally mobilising, things are going to get grim, shades of Arkan.
 
DairyQueen said:
A unilateral declaration would be unconstitutional and the Ukrainian government have made it clear they will enforce the constitution. It is forbidden in the Ukrainian constitution for a region to leave without the approval of all Ukrainians. What I am saying is that the Ukrainian constitution forbids the fragmentation of Ukraine even though it may be the case that the central government might not be able to identify and promote interests of every region simultaneously.
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yes but what is the current status of the Ukrainian constitution post coup ? And what legitimate basis does a coup government have to enforce anything on a populace that never elected them ? Im quite sure the Ukrainian constitution makes some mention of its government having to be elected and not imposed by force.
The coup are binning the constitution and introducing a new one of their own, after sacking numerous judges in the constitutional court . Which itself was beseiged by neo nazis at the time .
I think its safe to say the Ukrainian constitution is gone at this point , and the Kiev junta arent enforcing the constitution but have dismantled it without any legal or constiutional legitmacy . Thats why we have regions of Ukraine now seeking independence from Kiev .
 
DairyQueen said:
No-one, except maybe Casually Red, is saying that anyone who has allegiance to a Ukrainian state as opposed to a Russian one is a Russophobe. .
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Ive never said that or hinted at it at any time . The only Russophobes Ive ever referred to are those in the western media and those on here scoffing at Russian news sources as opposed to their own sniffy and often russophobic anglo ones . As well as highlighting the russophobic nature of a right wing coup who use it to whip up nationalist sentiment . Using your own disingenuousness to respond to his does nothing to clarify debate on here .
 
treelover said:
So, the Fash are finally mobilising, things are going to get grim, shades of Arkan.
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the junta are now talking about sending in the military, as opposed to just these special police groups who dont look like they have been able to get the job done . If that happens that will most likely include the new paramilitary National Guard . Which as Ive been pointing out is crammed full of fash .
The junta may not be able to count on their military doing the job of civilian repression any more than they have been able to trust their police . Many in their military are from these areas, and also Crimea . Its largely a conscript force which reflects the make up of a deeply polarised Ukraine and there will be a lot of reluctance to shoot their own people, freinds and even family from within those forces.

The NG are a different story and will be a lot more ideological, ethnically pure and almost all from western Ukraine .

Kiev issues new ultimatum
In the capital, Ukraine’s Security Council convened for an urgent session following the events in Slavyansk. A decision was taken to launch “a large scale” operation, “with the involvement of the military,” Ukraine’s coup-imposed president, Aleksandr Turchinov, said in a televised address.

Later he said that the operation in the east will involve a non-regular regiment consisting of 350 reservists.

According to Turchinov, the anti-Maidan activists must lay down their arms and abandon the administrative offices they have occupied till Monday morning if they want to avoid prosecution.

Interim Interior Minister, Arsen Avakov, has announced the creation of special Interior ministry units based on civilian components all across Ukraine in order to tackle separatist moods.

Kiev is ready to attract 12,000 people into the new force, which will receive the necessary arms, equipment and supervision, the minister wrote on his Facebook page.

The order to put together a “stabilizing” unit in Lugansk Region has already been signed, Avakov wrote, adding the eastern regions of Ukraine will be first to get a taste of the new force

http://rt.com/news/donetsk-kharkov-protest-ukraine-280/
 
I am not sure what is more depressing - Putin´s astonishing cyncism or the fact that there are people on these boards who are prepared to credit his narrative as being legitimate.

This looks an awful lot like another proxy invasion.

The one thing that does mystify me about the pro-Putinists is this - no matter the political state of an independent nation, how can a neighbour justify exerting such direct, destabilising influence upon it? By what right can it do so?
 
Diamond said:
I am not sure what is more depressing - Putin´s astonishing cyncism or the fact that there are people on these boards who are prepared to credit his narrative as being legitimate.

This looks an awful lot like another proxy invasion.

The one thing that does mystify me about the pro-Putinists is this - no matter the political state of an independent nation, how can a neighbour justify exerting such direct, destabilising influence upon it? By what right can it do so?
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christ.:facepalm:
 
Casually Red said:
Ive never said that or hinted at it at any time . The only Russophobes Ive ever referred to are those in the western media and those on here scoffing at Russian news sources as opposed to their own sniffy and often russophobic anglo ones . As well as highlighting the russophobic nature of a right wing coup who use it to whip up nationalist sentiment . Using your own disingenuousness to respond to his does nothing to clarify debate on here .
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I am not sure what debate you are having. I just think you use Russophobia very liberally. The western media and western states seem very hypocritical (maybe even more so than the Russian), and the way Russia is portrayed (and Putin personally) seems to me to be more to do with their attempts to justify their tacit approval of our foreign interventions while condemning Russia's. Some right-wingers and George Galloway (and you) are not even bothering and cheering on Putin. Since civil war is looking a likelier prospect, it is all getting very depressing.
 
DairyQueen said:
I am not sure what debate you are having. I just think you use Russophobia very liberally. The western media and western states seem very hypocritical (maybe even more so than the Russian), and the way Russia is portrayed (and Putin personally) seems to me to be more to do with their attempts to justify their tacit approval of our foreign interventions while condemning Russia's. Some right-wingers and George Galloway (and you) are not even bothering and cheering on Putin. Since civil war is looking a likelier prospect, it is all getting very depressing.
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The debate Im having is you specifically accused me of regarding any Ukrainian who wanted to remain within a Ukrainian state as being a Russophobe . That was complete and utter bollocks . Thats the debate Im having with you .

And now youre rambling on about something else pretending you never said it ,and pretending you dont know what Im refusing to accept. Adding to your previous disingenousness which Ive already alluded to.
 
Casually Red said:
The debate Im having is you specifically accused me of regarding any Ukrainian who wanted to remain within a Ukrainian state as being a Russophobe . That was complete and utter bollocks . Thats the debate Im having with you .

And now youre rambling on about something else pretending you never said it ,and pretending you dont know what Im refusing to accept. Adding to your previous disingenousness which Ive already alluded to.
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Well, if we get into semantics, I actually said "allegiance" to the Ukrainian state. I also said "maybe" Casually Red because you are admittedly partisan here and you are coming out with some rhetoric as a result.

You brought up the western press so I commented on it.

Casually Red said:
yes but what is the current status of the Ukrainian constitution post coup ? And what legitimate basis does a coup government have to enforce anything on a populace that never elected them ? Im quite sure the Ukrainian constitution makes some mention of its government having to be elected and not imposed by force.
The coup are binning the constitution and introducing a new one of their own, after sacking numerous judges in the constitutional court . Which itself was beseiged by neo nazis at the time .
I think its safe to say the Ukrainian constitution is gone at this point , and the Kiev junta arent enforcing the constitution but have dismantled it without any legal or constiutional legitmacy . Thats why we have regions of Ukraine now seeking independence from Kiev .
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That may be true, but I was debating with Violent Panda. The point I made was more general.
 
DairyQueen said:
Well, if we get into semantics, I actually said "allegiance" to the Ukrainian state. I also said "maybe" Casually Red because you are admittedly partisan here and you are coming out with some rhetoric as a result.

You brought up the western press so I commented on it.

.
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semantics my arse, you were specific . Your accusation doesnt stand up to any scrutiny , does not relate to anything Ive said or any point Ive ever argued .
I brought up the western press as an example of those I regarded as Russophobic , as opposed to the baseless accusation you made . And havent withdrawn with any grace at all either .
 
DairyQueen said:
That may be true, but I was debating with Violent Panda. The point I made was more general.
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the point you made was specific, about these protests being unconstitutional, and therefore illegal . While insisting the coup is the party with constitutional legitmacy, acting legally and enforcing the constitution . Regardless who you were making these points to they are invalid in my view, given the fact theres been an illegal coup that has illegally and unconstitutionally dismissed the Ukrainian constitution . And therefore such points are open to challenge .
If you regard them as private between yourself and himself and prefer them not to be commented upon by others Id suggest you pm them instead, as opposed to posting them openly .
 
Casually Red said:
semantics my arse, you were specific . Your accusation doesnt stand up to any scrutiny , does not relate to anything Ive said or any point Ive ever argued .
I brought up the western press as an example of those I regarded as Russophobic , as opposed to the baseless accusation you made . And havent withdrawn with any grace at all either .
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Well, just take the way you are describing people here as Russophobic. Most people don't support the Russian intervention and you do. There is nothing wrong with that, but saying this forum is russophobic demeans the term.

Casually Red said:
the point you made was specific, about these protests being unconstitutional, and therefore illegal . While insisting the coup is the party with constitutional legitmacy, acting legally and enforcing the constitution . Regardless who you were making these points to they are invalid in my view, given the fact theres been an illegal coup that has illegally and unconstitutionally dismissed the Ukrainian constitution . And therefore such points are open to challenge .
If you regard them as private between yourself and himself and prefer them not to be commented upon by others Id suggest you pm them instead, as opposed to posting them openly .
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I don't mind you joining in, but you are taking this out of its context and creating a pointless tangent. The constitution, regardless of who actually recognises it now, effectively forbids secession peacefully. Even if you are of the view the constitution is no longer a credible basis of law, it is a statement of intent of the current Ukrainian government (and possibly the West).
 
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