Ukraine

[camouflage]

Compelling article on Counterpunch...

The overriding goal of US policy in Ukraine is to stop the further economic integration of Asia and Europe. That’s what the fracas is really all about. The United States wants to control the flow of energy from East to West, it wants to establish a de facto tollbooth between the continents, it wants to ensure that those deals are transacted in US dollars and recycled into US Treasuries, and it wants to situate itself between the two most prosperous markets of the next century. Anyone who has even the sketchiest knowledge of US foreign policy– particularly as it relates to Washington’s “pivot to Asia”– knows this is so. The US is determined to play a dominant role in Eurasia in the years ahead. Wreaking havoc in Ukraine is a central part of that plan

Retired German Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Jochen Scholz summed up US policy in an open letter which appeared on the Neue Rheinilche Zeitung news-site last week. Scholz said the Washington’s objective was “to deny Ukraine a role as a bridge between Eurasian Union and European Union….They want to bring Ukraine under the NATO control” and sabotage the prospects for “a common economic zone from Lisbon to Vladivostok.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/15/is-putin-being-lured-into-a-trap/

 

[seventh bullet]

Someone can decode the hairstyles?


Guards struggled with anti-separatist protesters outside the Ukrainian parliament in Kiev

Cossacks.

 

[treelover]

"White House supports action: Kiev 'has to respond'



From the Guardian live update

incredible hypocrisy

 

[butchersapron]

Latest from G Levy and on the ground reports on what this nonsense is doing to (the potential) class politics:

The majority of those in Donbass who are taking action against the current Ukrainian government are workers: miners, metalworkers, machine-builders, and so on. But there is NOTHING AT ALL workerist in their appeals, their demands and their slogans.

Paradoxically, the working class as a subject of social life has disappeared, although it is certainly representatives of the working class who are the main forces taking action. But the movement in Donbass is only concerned with the issue of which government (which bourgeoisie) people should be subordinate to – Russian or Ukrainian; in which country do we need to live – separate, and go over to Russia, or keep the region within Ukraine.

The very low level of class consciousness that is present – for simple economic struggle of hired workers for their interests – seems to have been eaten away and crushed by nationalism.

Cheer it on under the guise of anti-fascism and your chessboard politics suckers.

 

[camouflage]

to the hammer, all problems are about the nail.

 

[tbtommyb]

Someone can decode the hairstyles?


Guards struggled with anti-separatist protesters outside the Ukrainian parliament in Kiev

It's called хохол, also a Russian slur for Ukrainians

 

[pocketscience]

Missing out das Vierte Reich altogether.

Reichsprung durch Ethnik

 

[DairyQueen]

Latest from G Levy and on the ground reports on what this nonsense is doing to (the potential) class politics

I don't mind Levy, but he still sides with one bourgeois faction over another. it reads like he is living in Kiev with a bunch of middle-class Ukrainians.

An interesting perspective here which is a bit less negative toward Russia, spoken by a Ukrainian anarchist apparently.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't mind Levy, but he still sides with one bourgeois faction over another. it reads like he is living in Kiev with a bunch of middle-class Ukrainians.

An interesting perspective here which is a bit less negative toward Russia, spoken by a Ukrainian anarchist apparently.

Bear in mind many many things have happened since that interview took place.

 

[Casually Red]

Arkan lives...

or Bandera

 

[Casually Red]

Im assured this pic of the fash national guard being trained is genuine . If so this may take awhile.

 

[camouflage]

Forehead palm.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Putin calling in support from his old European allies.

French far-right leader Marine le Pen has spoken out in support of Russia and expressed her dismay at Paris’s refusal to allow MPs to meet State Duma speaker Sergey Naryshkin, simply because of his inclusion in the US sanctions list.

http://rt.com/news/marine-pen-russia-ukraine-128/

 

[newbie]

Latest from G Levy and on the ground reports on what this nonsense is doing to (the potential) class politics:



Cheer it on under the guise of anti-fascism and your chessboard politics suckers.

odd article that. Given that no-one has claimed this is, or has been, revolving around class oriented politics there's no surprise that D reckons that "no class struggle can be expected" from either side. Nationalism, Ukrainian or Russian, has been center stage throughout, overlaid on identification with one or other of the external political/economic powerhouses, only one of which is mentioned. The role of EU doesn't get acknowledged at all.

Both D and GL reserve their criticism of nationalism for those on the pro-Russian side, there's no criticism or even mention of concern about far right or 'fascist' influence or involvement in pro-Ukrainian nationalism. Both, in different ways, appear to endorse "growing unity around the current government" without much in the way of reservation. Which might be fine if that government had arisen from developed class oriented social movements. Is anyone suggesting that?

Anyone living near the Donbass region (as D does) is well entitled to see Putin/the Russian state as the "worse" of the evils, simply from proximity let alone anything else. We are told nothing of D's own cultural/economic background, so it's not clear to what extent that influences his political views- in the circumstances it seems hard to believe there is no influence. Would a left activist from within the region report in the same terms? As a woman (who lives in the region) put it on the radio the other day (I paraphrase) "I speak Russian, my relatives are Russian and my wallet depends on trade with Russia", which must play a part in how views are formed.

The underlying message is sound: "I hope that labour and social movements in western Europe will denounce Putin’s aggression clearly. On what other basis can we support the rebuilding of class and community solidarity that is being so badly damaged?" Just as the aggression and interference of the EU/West needs to be denounced.

Not that it makes any odds who I denounce

 

[butchersapron]

odd article that. Given that no-one has claimed this is, or has been, revolving around class oriented politics there's no surprise that D reckons that "no class struggle can be expected" from either side. Nationalism, Ukrainian or Russian, has been center stage throughout, overlaid on identification with one or other of the external political/economic powerhouses, only one of which is mentioned. The role of EU doesn't get acknowledged at all.

Both D and GL reserve their criticism of nationalism for those on the pro-Russian side, there's no criticism or even mention of concern about far right or 'fascist' influence or involvement in pro-Ukrainian nationalism. Both, in different ways, appear to endorse "growing unity around the current government" without much in the way of reservation. Which might be fine if that government had arisen from developed class oriented social movements. Is anyone suggesting that?

Anyone living near the Donbass region (as D does) is well entitled to see Putin/the Russian state as the "worse" of the evils, simply from proximity let alone anything else. We are told nothing of D's own cultural/economic background, so it's not clear to what extent that influences his political views- in the circumstances it seems hard to believe there is no influence. Would a left activist from within the region report in the same terms? As a woman (who lives in the region) put it on the radio the other day (I paraphrase) "I speak Russian, my relatives are Russian and my wallet depends on trade with Russia", which must play a part in how views are formed.

The underlying message is sound: "I hope that labour and social movements in western Europe will denounce Putin’s aggression clearly. On what other basis can we support the rebuilding of class and community solidarity that is being so badly damaged?" Just as the aggression and interference of the EU/West needs to be denounced.

Not that it makes any odds who I denounce

Odd reading and response. I don't know how you got to the above from the piece. The article argues a couple of simple things:

1) That the possibility of an independent class politics in eastern Ukraine is being destroyed by rival nationalisms that are increasingly colonising class and left politics.

2) That the logic of lesser evilism is helping develop this situation by forcing the class to choose one nationalism or govt of the bourgeois (or lesser evil) or the other. That given the historical situation there is no clear lesser evilism even if this logic were sound - the only result of forcing this choice is to reinforce divisive aggressive nationalist logic and damage other more helpful approaches.

To your responses: the basis for class politics does exist - and it always does - but is now being driven into and expressed through nationalism “for our struggle we need money, and we don’t have any – so let’s take it from the rich”. If you take as your start point the centrality of class politics to getting beyond this mess then taking a critical look at the realities of the situation, how its impacting on those class politics and the future prospects is a good and useful thing to do. It's rather different though from a simple expectation that mass class based politics simply follows from widespread civil disorder and conflict - which seems to me to be the basis of your first dismisall, The suggestion that these are poor naifs with daft expectations rather than people taking a cold hard critical look at the reality of the situation and attempting to analyse the dynamics driving it.

Only criticise one side? Ok, this piece is part of an ongoing discussion where certain facts are now taken as facts - there is no need to recapitulate the history of the thing or lay out a ritual condemnation each time you offer something to the discussion. Do you think not partaking of this ritual means they're somehow soft on or supportive of the ukranian state and govt - the one they condemn as being a catspaw of the bourgeois and ukranian capital, which you seemed to miss. Ok then, your piece failed to mention that support of the russian far-right for Putin and the russian states actions - would you accept someone then suggesting that you are soft on or supportive of russian style national bolshevism? I would really hope not.

It gets worse though, you go onto say that the authors "appear to endorse "growing unity around the current government" without much in the way of reservation." Now this is pretty bad. What you've done is confuse them saying that there is a growing unity among the ukranian population behind the govt - a govt that they have insisted is one of the actors in forcing this nationalist logic onto the stage, in forcing this lesser evilism onto the stage, in helping close off the potential of class politics, the very thing they wrote the piece to criticise and argue against - with them supporting that developing national unity - the national unity from which "no class struggle can be expected". Really, how did you get to them writing a piece criticising the growing unity around the national govt on a nationalist basis partly because it displaces class politics to them endorsing that growing unity?

Your third para only highlights the truth of what the article says - you recount a russian living in the same area as D. being forced to choose russia whilst d. sees putin and the russian state as worse. There's the division on nationalist lines happening in front of your eyes and growing out of your own example.

As for the message - if message there even be - well, there's a clear split there between GL outward looking and rather pointless plea to western european labour and left movements. And then there's D'd internal plea for people to resist the call of nationalism, not to allow themselves to be the tools of the russian state or the ukranian bourgeoisie. To take sides with people.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Despite Putin's attempts to talk up a civil war, many Ukrainian soldiers are refusing to fight.

A soldier manning one of the troop carriers now under the control of pro-Russian separatists identified himself to Reuters as being a member of Ukraine's 25th paratrooper division from Dnipropetrovsk.

He said: "All the soldiers and the officers are here. We are all boys who won't shoot our own people."

 

[J Ed]

Despite Putin's attempts to talk up a civil war, many Ukrainian soldiers are refusing to fight.

...refusing to fight the separatists since, according to Reuters as quoted in the Guardian, they have switched over to their side. Hopefully we won't find out whether they will fight soldiers from the Kiev government or not.

 

[butchersapron]

Interesting piece from Kagarlitsky which takes up the suggestion in the joint piece we were discussing above which said:

In my view, Putin considers those on the streets in eastern Ukraine – whether “pro Russians” who have seized government buildings, or “loyal Ukrainians” who have formed self-defence units in response – as pawns in his power game. He fears the social movements that erupted against the Yanukovich regime. He fears even more that the notes struck in those movements against corruption and oligarchical power relations will find an echo in Russia.

and Kagar says:

In their significance, the changes occurring in the Ukrainian south-east extend far across the borders of the neighbouring state. They directly affect Russia, providing us with images of our own potential future. It is no accident that our own ruling elites are becoming less and less enamoured of the famous “Russian spring”. Official Moscow has let it be understood, in no uncertain terms, that it makes no claim to Ukraine’s rebellious provinces. This is not a diplomatic move, and not a concession to the West; more correctly, it is a step dictated, among other causes, by a desire to avoid any escalation of a conflict that has far exceeded the bounds of anything the Kremlin finds convenient or manageable. Unlike Crimea, where everything was controlled and where, after two or three demonstrations, the transfer of power was carried out by the local elite, in Donetsk and Lugansk we are witnessing the elemental force of a popular movement, which it is simply impossible to manage from outside.

This movement is decentralised and thrusting forward its own leaders from among people who only yesterday were unknown, it is formulating and developing its agenda as events unfold. For our Russian authorities, accepting into the Russian Federation several provinces with such a population and with such mass organisations, at a time when there is a growing social crisis in our own country, would be like shooting themselves in the foot.

He bases his reading largely on the way that the maidan quickly span out of control of official forces "when workers and the lower orders of urban society [could not only have] emerged suddenly onto the streets, but also begun acting independently, organising themselves and making history" and the similarity he sees with what's happening in the east. But he overlooks that the old forces were the ones catapulted straight into official power by maidan.

 

[ViolentPanda]

without being rude, the US has 'thrown' 18 fighters, one warship, and some tankers into this 'mix'. Russia has kept a mobilised force of around 150,000 men on or near the Ukranian border.

theres one country wagging its dick around, and its Russia.

Although "near" is relative, being that it's generally counted as "within 12 hours travel using mass transport" for infantry and armour, so merely looking a t border concentrations is utterly misleading.

 

[andysays]

Interesting piece from Kagarlitsky which takes up the suggestion in the joint piece we were discussing above which said:

and Kagar says:

He bases his reading largely on the way that the maidan quickly span out of control of official forces "when workers and the lower orders of urban society [could not only have] emerged suddenly onto the streets, but also begun acting independently, organising themselves and making history" and the similarity he sees with what's happening in the east. But he overlooks that the old forces were the ones catapulted straight into official power by maidan.

Isn't there a possibility that to some extent he's seeing what he wants to see?

It's still unclear, to me at least, whether this all began as a spontaneous reaction against corruption and olgarchism and was subverted very quickly and effectively by the far-right and directed in support of a different group of corrupt oligarchs to those then in power, or whether it was western-inspired far-right movement right from day one, simply using existing dissatisfaction as a cynical excuse.

 

[butchersapron]

Isn't there a possibility that to some extent he's seeing what he wants to see?

It's still unclear, to me at least, whether this all began as a spontaneous reaction against corruption and olgarchism and was subverted very quickly and effectively by the far-right and directed in support of a different group of corrupt oligarchs to those then in power, or whether it was western-inspired far-right movement right from day one, simply using existing dissatisfaction as a cynical excuse.

In the latter part he most certainly is - in the suggestion that the russian state don't want this contagious stuff with its various potentials spreading inside their current borders, not so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Without being rude, so it's 150,000 now? Thought it was 40,000. How ever many, they are in Russia where they belong. I haven't seen any reports of Putin making loud announcements about how much hardware he's going to move up to the border. The Russians have however offered the Ukraine sight on what's happening on their side of the border apparently. Can't say what the situation is with that now... we get so little factual news of events here in the West (or Earth probably, to be fair, why should power tell you what the fuck's going on).

Best way to tell numbers is to also look at concentration points away from the border. As I've said, with infantry and armour, that's up to 12 hours away using mass transport. For airborne, it's (IIRC) a quarter of the distance a full tank of fuel will take them (so they don't go bingo as soon as they arrive).

 

[andysays]

In the latter part he most certainly is - in the suggestion that the russian state don't want this contagious stuff with its various potentials spreading inside their current borders, not so.

I'm sure the Russian state wouldn't want a working class spontaneous reaction against corruption and olgarchism within its borders. I do wonder if that is really any sort of possibility now*, given that element within Ukraine seems to have been disipated, and the accepted game in town is to choose a side depending on competing nationalisms.

*maybe it might have been earlier in the process, if there were groups/forces within Russian ready and willing to take it up

 

[ViolentPanda]

Stop.

Think.

What sources other than the current Kievan authorities would the US have? What kind of sources?

About 50% will be intelligence from human assets on the scene, the rest will be signals and electronic intelligence.
All of it will be mediated by the alphabet soup also known as CIA, NSA, and other (military) intelligence agencies.

So, mediated sources.

 

[kebabking]

About 50% will be intelligence from human assets on the scene, the rest will be signals and electronic intelligence.
All of it will be mediated by the alphabet soup also known as CIA, NSA, and other (military) intelligence agencies.

So, mediated sources.

while thats certainly true, the different filters have different, and sometimes opposing, political objectives - the Poles will have lots of HUMINT and have little interest in putting forward a low figure/relaxed posture, while the Germans, who will also have lots of HUMINT, will be looking to produce a 'nothing to see here..' estimate.

while its also true that the US dominates the SIGINT/ELINT/COMMINT and imaging pot, they are not the only players producing this stuff, and as importantly, the feed is going through the NATO, rather than purely US, analysis system, so while it might be a US RC-135 or UK E-3D doing the listening, it might be a French, or German, or Norwegian analyst who decides what its product means in bigger picture terms.

 

[laptop]

Although "near" is relative, being that it's generally counted as "within 12 hours travel using mass transport" for infantry and armour, so merely looking a t border concentrations is utterly misleading.

Observe that Moscow is 14 hours by express train from Kamensk-Shakhtinski, a random place that I picked near the border near Donetsk.

To add to the confusion, there's a place right on the border called Donets'k (in Rostov Oblast, Russia). And it's been scanned for Google StreetView but interesting parts are showing up black Watch for media bloopers!



Er, work...

 

[camouflage]

Observe that Moscow is 14 hours by express train from Kamensk-Shakhtinski, a random place that I picked near the border near Donetsk.

I considered pointing this out actually, it seems that Russia is threatening Ukraine by menacingly being located next to it.

That scoundrel Putin must have planned it all from the beginning!

 

[camouflage]

The International Socialist Organization and the Ukraine crisis

As for “renouncing the mass uprising that overthrew the Yanukovych regime,” nowhere does the ISO even approach a class analysis of this “uprising” or an examination of its programmatic aims. By all accounts, the class composition of those who occupied Kiev’s Maidan was overwhelmingly petty-bourgeois and drawn from the more conservative and rural west of the country. No strike movement accompanied the clashes in the capital, and there was no involvement by the Ukrainian working class as a class in this movement. The domination of right-wing and fascist forces was not some accident, but reflected the social elements involved.

The main demand that accompanied the beginning of the anti-Yanukovych demonstrations last November was reactionary—the demand for the integration of Ukraine into the European Union. This demand reflected the interests of privileged layers of the middle classes and sections of the bourgeoisie, not the working class, which has learned in recent years that the EU stands for austerity, poverty and repression. The Maidan protests promoted a brutal International Monetary Fund austerity program that will, in addition to slashing wages and social benefits and increasing utility prices, result in the wholesale closure of mines and factories and the destruction of tens of thousands of jobs, especially in the industrialized east of the country.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/04/16/swuk-a16.html

Interesting article here^ which reminds me of criticisms I myself have made of voices nominally on the Left. More eloquently put though.

 

[laptop]

I considered pointing this out actually, it seems that Russia is threatening Ukraine by menacingly being located next to it.

Cartoon in the Eye: Putin warns Ukraine - him on phone saying "We want you to move your border away from our troops"

 

[SpineyNorman]

The International Socialist Organization and the Ukraine crisis



http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/04/16/swuk-a16.html

Interesting article here^ which reminds me of criticisms I myself have made of voices nominally on the Left. More eloquently put though.

The WSWS is the website of what's known in the UK as the socialist equality party. A lunatic remnant of the WRP. That website was also one of the first places to publish 9/11 conspiracy theories.

PS: what's the class composition of the Russian state?