Ukraine

[Casually Red]

It's ridiculous isn't it, what are they going to do with all these planes and ships anyway if things kick off. It's like boasting about bringing an extra knuckle-duster to an artillery duel. There's absolutely no point talking tough like this, all emphasis should be on diplomacy, de-escalation and negotiation if this was really about peace and democracy or what-have-you rather than aprons "chess games" and mad bids to 'dominate the board'.

If things kicked off then they should leave the jet planes at home tbh, if they really want to talk tough they should be boasting to us about how NATO are prepared to lose 90 percent of 95 percent of our cities, how they reckon we can still prevail against the Ruskie scum having sustained 100 million deaths in the first 2 hours and 800 million deaths by the end of Day 1 while inflicting far more damage against the enemy, how we have stock-piled radiation-sickness medicine, canned food and bottled water and how the civil authorities are ready to deal with the mass panic, clouds of radioactive ash and burning countryside. They should be letting us know about what we're doing to keep on top of the Strangelovian 'Cave Gap' before gravely informing us all that we are now at DEFCON 3.

What do they think the jet planes are going to do anyway if Putin says "Fuck it all then" tomorrow. It's all quite ridiculous. I'm guessing that this kind of talk would sharpen minds and priorities pretty fast, and if democratic will had anything to do with it the clear message would be "fuckit, leave it then". Save yer jet-planes for bombing wedding parties in goat-based economies yeh, seeing as they're useless against someone with also masses and masses of nukes and other advanced weaponry.

NATO trying to keep itself relevant by chatting totally irrelevant bollocks imo.

'We're a big expensive gun club, because the likes of Lockheed, Ratheon an BAE's gotta eat. Please donate generously' <- see.. easy. Why not just be honest instead of all this fuss.

according to this line from that clown Obama I think he actually believes theyre scaring the Russians with it
Mr Obama added: "They are not interested in any kind of military confrontation with us, understanding that our conventional forces are significantly superior to the Russians."

So basically that complete and absolute fuckwit is ...in the midst of all these tensions...actually talking about the possibility of a war with Russia, and claiming the Russians are scared of them and theyd win it if it comes to it .

The complete and utter wanker.

 

[TomUS]

http://news.sky.com/story/1244074/leaders-hail-breakthrough-in-ukraine-crisis

Russia and the Ukrainian government look like they have negotiated a deal... makes me wonder about the nature of the Donetsk revolt.

BBC says so too. Maybe this will end peacefully.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27072351

 

[SovietArmy]

I was watching the marathon q and a session Putin was doing earlier. Some sarcastic pensioner phoned in and asked him was he planning to retake Alaska as well.

I was pretty relieved to hear him say no.

I watched as well life today Putin talk show. I had a feeling Russian people are angry and wished for war against Nato.

 

[elbows]

Regarding the leaflets targeting Jewish people.

Kerry mentioned it in todays deal press conference:

"Notices were sent to Jews in one city indicating that they had to identify themselves as Jews," Kerry says. "In the year of 2014... this is not just intolerable, it is grotesque. It is beyond unacceptable."

"Every party joined in its condemnation in that kind of behaviour."

This article has a different take on Pushilin's response to the leaflets:

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014...aines-jews-to-register-with-separatist-group/

The original report from Novosti Donbassa said that the leaflet was passed out by “three unidentified men wearing balaclavas and carrying the flag of the Russian Federation” with the aim of causing a conflict, then “to blame the attack on separatists.” The flyers were distributed in the name of the “People’s Republic of Donetsk,” the title that the pro-Russian separatists in the region have given themselves. They also bear the signature of Denis Pushilin, who has been referred to in reports from the region as the “people’s governor.”

In an interview with Ukrainian press, Pushilin confirmed that the flyers, marked with the emblem of his organization, were really distributed in Donetsk. But unlike various English translations, in the original interview with Ukrainian media, Pushilin not only rejected the content of the flyers, but also denied that his organization was behind their printing. “Some idiots yesterday were giving out these flyers in targeted areas,” he said, claiming that he had never himself used the “people’s governor” title the flyer bestows on him. Pushilin did not suggest who else may have been handing out the anti-Semetic flyers, but went on to criticize the original site for posting it online.

 

[dylanredefined]

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=ukraine[/QUOTE]

I watched as well life today Putin talk show. I had a feeling Russian people are angry and wished for war against Nato.

Why? All NATO has done is complain about Russia. The USSR isn't coming back and for an awful lot of east Europeans not being part of Russia is a good thing.

 

[Casually Red]

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=ukraine

Why? All NATO has done is complain about Russia. The USSR isn't coming back and for an awful lot of east Europeans not being part of Russia is a good thing.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, given the fact NATO was created as supposed defensive Alliance against the USSR , which as you admit is gone and isnt coming back, it begs the question why does NATO even exist . It can only be presumed to exist therefore to project western military strength in an aggressive posture as opposed to for any defensive reason.

NATO has also broken key agreements which were supposed to assure world peace following the dissolution of the USSR. Primarily that it would not seek to incorporate former warsaw pact states and expand eastwards. An agreement that now lies completely broken as it now encircles Russia militarily and seeks to expand even further into Ukraine.

And its done a lot more than criticise Russia, its deployed numerous aircraft and navy assets to the region . Which we can now see from Obamas talking up war fiasco is an actual attempt to physically threaten Russia.

 

[Casually Red]

Regarding the leaflets targeting Jewish people.

Kerry mentioned it in todays deal press conference:



This article has a different take on Pushilin's response to the leaflets:

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014...aines-jews-to-register-with-separatist-group/

If Kerry is using the press conference as an opportunity to use blatant provocations in a point scoring exercise against the anti junta protestors then it doesnt give one a great deal of confidence in the agreement being crafted in good faith. And therefore the likelihood of it being a genuine exercise in national reconciliation.
Certainly were I a protestor I woldnt have a lot of faith in it after I heard those comments from that slack jawed idiot.

If someone doesnt gag Obama and Kerry soon both those idiots will undo with their big mouths any good that diplomatic negotiations may have secured.

 

[classicdish]

...NATO has also broken key agreements which were supposed to assure world peace following the dissolution of the USSR. Primarily that it would not seek to incorporate former warsaw pact states and expand eastwards...

When was this agreement signed and by whom? You've claimed this repeatedly but I can't find any hard information about any such treaty or agreement.

On a more general point of principle however, if country wants to join NATO then why shouldn't it?

 

[DairyQueen]

BBC says so too. Maybe this will end peacefully.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27072351

Not sure this will ever end, but I suppose one crisis will be over. Ukrainian politics generally has one crisis and then another. I think this is different. Suffice to say, I reckon a lot less people will be posting on here as Ukraine slowly drifts from the front pages.

 

[dylanredefined]

Why? All NATO has done is complain about Russia. The USSR isn't coming back and for an awful lot of east Europeans not being part of Russia is a good thing.

NATO has also broken key agreements which were supposed to assure world peace following the dissolution of the USSR. Primarily that it would not seek to incorporate former warsaw pact states and expand eastwards. An agreement that now lies completely broken as it now encircles Russia militarily and seeks to expand even further into Ukraine.

And its done a lot more than criticise Russia, its deployed numerous aircraft and navy assets to the region . Which we can now see from Obamas talking up war fiasco is an actual attempt to physically threaten Russia.[/QUOTE]

Russia is pissed at NATO as membership basically means former client states sticking two fingers up at Russia. Russia wanted the agreements NATO never
signed up to anything other than they might discuss it. Though when Georgia got drunk and had its little war NATO kind of looked the other way.

 

[Casually Red]

Though when Georgia got drunk and had its little war NATO kind of looked the other way.

georgia didnt get drunk. Georgia took a decision while sober in the belief NATO would dissuade any Russia response. They got that impression from NATO itself. Joining NATO isnt just sticking up 2 fingers, its about becoming part of a military threat that actively encourages military aggression against Russia.
And indeed the other countries that NATO has attacked and threatens to attack without any UN mandate.

 

[8ball]

BBC says so too. Maybe this will end peacefully.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27072351

I think it might calm down very quick if this means the pro-Russian groups in Ukraine don't think Putin has their back (depends on the details, obv).
Stuff will continue to simmer, though, while Ukraine is dragged around like a confused kid between two acrimonious feuding parents.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Been away for a bit again.

How are the Putinists and associated apologists treating the Donetsk leaflet?

Or are they just ignoring it?

Also, have their views on the Baltic states been sounded out yet given it seems quite likely that they are next in line?

You're far more irritating than the 'Putinists' tbh

 

[dylanredefined]

georgia didnt get drunk. Georgia took a decision while sober in the belief NATO would dissuade any Russia response. They got that impression from NATO itself. Joining NATO isnt just sticking up 2 fingers, its about becoming part of a military threat that actively encourages military aggression against Russia.
And indeed the other countries that NATO has attacked and threatens to attack without any UN mandate.

What military aggression? Not dancing to Russians tune now is not aggression. Russia can join the has beens of world powers like the UK.

 

[Casually Red]

What military aggression? Not dancing to Russians tune now is not aggression. Russia can join the has beens of world powers like the UK.

the aggression Obama is currently boasting about, like a fucking madman

 

[Dillinger4]

the aggression Obama is currently boasting about, like a fucking madman

I am no fan of Putin but the pointlessly bellicose stance taken by USUKNATO is terrifying. I am starting to get an idea of what it must have been to live like through some of the worst parts of the cold war.

And many of those moments were provoked by a pointlessly bellicose stance taken by USUKNATO. I read a book about SIGINT a while ago about flights that were flown right up to the borders of the Soviet Union to test their ELINT and reaction procedures, and the constant spy flights over the Soviet Union, constant needless provocation.

I thought those days were over but they seem to have made a return. History repeats itself...

 

[Casually Red]

It's ridiculous isn't it, what are they going to do with all these planes and ships anyway if things kick off. It's like boasting about bringing an extra knuckle-duster to an artillery duel. There's absolutely no point talking tough like this, all emphasis should be on diplomacy, de-escalation and negotiation if this was really about peace and democracy or what-have-you rather than aprons "chess games" and mad bids to 'dominate the board'.

If things kicked off then they should leave the jet planes at home tbh, if they really want to talk tough they should be boasting to us about how NATO are prepared to lose 90 percent of 95 percent of our cities, how they reckon we can still prevail against the Ruskie scum having sustained 100 million deaths in the first 2 hours and 800 million deaths by the end of Day 1 while inflicting far more damage against the enemy, how we have stock-piled radiation-sickness medicine, canned food and bottled water and how the civil authorities are ready to deal with the mass panic, clouds of radioactive ash and burning countryside. They should be letting us know about what we're doing to keep on top of the Strangelovian 'Cave Gap' before gravely informing us all that we are now at DEFCON 3.

What do they think the jet planes are going to do anyway if Putin says "Fuck it all then" tomorrow. It's all quite ridiculous. I'm guessing that this kind of talk would sharpen minds and priorities pretty fast, and if democratic will had anything to do with it the clear message would be "fuckit, leave it then". Save yer jet-planes for bombing wedding parties in goat-based economies yeh, seeing as they're useless against someone with also masses and masses of nukes and other advanced weaponry.
.

this is precisely why I was calling for the ICBms to be wheeled out and tes fired in large numbers. To inject some much needed reality into the wests political and military posturing, before that posturing gets out of hand. Which it could do quite easily.
Obama is weak,precisely because hes acutely frightened of being percieved as weak. Thats a very poor leadership quality in my view and leads to very stupid decisions. Such as listening to warmongering idiots like mccain and other assorted madmen. That can have grave consequences .

 

[dylanredefined]

I am no fan of Putin but the pointlessly bellicose stance taken by USUKNATO is terrifying. I am starting to get an idea of what it must have been to live like through some of the worst parts of the cold war.

And many of those moments were provoked by a pointlessly bellicose stance taken by USUKNATO. I read a book about SIGINT a while ago about flights that were flown right up to the borders of the Soviet Union to test their ELINT and reaction procedures, and the constant spy flights over the Soviet Union, constant needless provocation.

I thought those days were over but they seem to have made a return. History repeats itself...

Yeah cos the warsaw pact never did anything like that.

 

[Humberto]

Is there any end in sight to all of this? Or is it likely to go on for months?

 

[Dillinger4]

Yeah cos the warsaw pact never did anything like that.

Don't be an idiot. Of course they did.

However, what the USUKNATO was up to was out of all proportion to what the Soviet Union were up to.

A case in point is the SOSUS sonar line in the north atlantic. This was built to contain soviet submarines, and only once did soviet submarines break through without being tracked which prompted a massive naval mobilization over the entire Atlantic to find the only two Soviet submarines to sneak through without being detected.

On the other hand, the US was regularly sending submarines bearing nuclear warheads. right up to the coast of Russia constantly.

This is only one example of needless provocation that is out of all proportion to what 'the enemy' was doing.

 

[Dillinger4]

.

 

[Casually Red]

I am no fan of Putin but the pointlessly bellicose stance taken by USUKNATO is terrifying. I am starting to get an idea of what it must have been to live like through some of the worst parts of the cold war.

And many of those moments were provoked by a pointlessly bellicose stance taken by USUKNATO. I read a book about SIGINT a while ago about flights that were flown right up to the borders of the Soviet Union to test their ELINT and reaction procedures, and the constant spy flights over the Soviet Union, constant needless provocation.

I thought those days were over but they seem to have made a return. History repeats itself...

this is absolute madness

For the first time in decades an American president has raised the prospect of war with Russia.

http://news.sky.com/story/1244459/obama-raises-spectre-of-war-with-russia

and there he is again. Talking about war with Russia when nobody else is. And again describing Russia...or more correctly Putin...as a weakling.

http://hotair.com/archives/2014/03/20/obama-were-not-going-to-war-with-russia-over-crimea/


I have to say at this point id feel a lot safer if George Bush was at the controls and not this idiot

 

[laptop]

For the first time in decades an American president has raised the prospect of war with Russia.

http://news.sky.com/story/1244459/obama-raises-spectre-of-war-with-russia

That's Murdoch having a go at Obama. Kiley has drunk the Fux News Kool-Aid. No other content.

 

[Casually Red]

That's Murdoch having a go at Obama. Kiley has drunk the Fux News Kool-Aid. No other content.

he said what he said, regardless of whether Murdoch approves of it or not . While the positions of the media outlet are certainly worth being aware of, the actual content itself is still very relevant . People on this board have an annoying habit of simply dismissing out of hand reported facts due to perceived agendas of various sources that they are at variance with . As if the facts themselves dont actually exist .
Obama actually said that stuff .

 

[SovietArmy]

Ah fuck Obama. I think he would not dare to attack Russia. At least USA is loosing plot. I remember how many years ago military options against Iran on the table ah USA scare mongers and masterminding.

 

[Dillinger4]

The US has always considered it a strength to be mad and unpredictable. They are cowards at heart though.

 

[Humberto]

Obama has no soul. Or he is a full loon with a shallow disguise of humanity.

 

[Casually Red]

heres him at it again, Putin is a weakling but world war 3 wouldnt be appropriate

The war with Russia ,that absolutely nobody except him is talking about ,isnt on the table either .

“There is a better path, but I think even the Ukrainians would acknowledge that for us to engage Russia militarily would not be appropriate, and would not be good for Ukraine either,” the president said.



Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/barack-obama-ukraine-crimea-russia-104828.html#ixzz2zBI2c3i3

 

[ferrelhadley]

On the other hand, the US was regularly sending submarines bearing nuclear warheads. right up to the coast of Russia constantly.

So the US was risking its capital ships and keystone of its nuclear deterrent by sticking way waaaaay closer to the enemy than they needed? And for what?

As for the USSR never being able to penetrate SOSUS, how sure are you of this.

 

[Dillinger4]

So the US was risking its capital ships and keystone of its nuclear deterrent by sticking way waaaaay closer to the enemy than they needed? And for what?

As for the USSR never being able to penetrate SOSUS, how sure are you of this.

One of the main objectives was to provoke the Soviet Navy / Airforce to react, so they could spy test their reaction protocols to create effective plans to counter them, often focusing particularly on ELINT (electronic intelligence). Book called Chatter by Patrick Radden Keefe about ECHELON goes into detail about this. They did this with submarines and planes, and it was called 'buzzing', trying to get Soviet planes, ships and submarines to respond to see what they do.

Another reason was to spy on the movements of Soviet submarines (primarily coming out of Murmansk). This was to track their movements before they reached the SOSUS sonar array, but also to investigate new Soviet submarines on test runs.

But for the most part, it was to project fear into the Soviet Union. So that they knew that the United States could launch nuclear missiles from within Soviet borders and hit Russian cities within minutes.

There are almost certainly more reasons. That is off the top of my head.

Russia could penetrate SOSUS. But after they crossed the line, US/UK navies would know their exact location and they would be tracked all over the Atlantic by US/UK navies, and would be constantly harrassed with sonar and so on until they returned to Soviet borders. There is only one known case of soviet submarines shaking the tracking, and this prompted a full naval mobilzation across the North Atlantic.