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The intents weren't similar, the intent of Treblinka, Sobibor, etc was the systematic industrialised murder of human beings. That was something completely different from the intent of the Gulag, or other concentration camps, and to not distinguish between the two is not just wrong and stupid it's actually offensive.
and I mentioned the difference between Concentration camp and Extermination camp, I also mentioned that the Soviet Union did not come close to the Extermination camps, although my gut feeling is that they felt they did not need to go that far, building and re-building railways through the arctic tundra and digging canals that would never be used were just as effective, if somewhat slower, as the gas chamber.
The intent of the Concentration camps and the Gulag were similar in that they were both intended to remove "undesirables" from society, with death being the ultimate "removal" a secondary priority in both cases was to extract as much work from the victims as possible.
 
ITV News, James Mates interviewed the NATO General Secretary and asked him, will you go to war if Russia tries to occupy Poland or the Baltic states, The S/G unequivocally said "yes, we are treaty bound to defend them".

now tell me some of us are being hysterical...
 
Yeah it is, it's a lot to do with religion and past history as well, Greek fash tended to be pro Serb during the Balkan war because Serbia was another orthodox country, but Hungarian fash were pro Croatian mostly

not-bono-ever will know more


So was much of the Greek Left at the time of the Serbian/Kosovo conflict, iirc there were major ructions on global indymedia about it.
 
ITV News, James Mates interviewed the NATO General Secretary and asked him, will you go to war if Russia tries to occupy Poland or the Baltic states, The S/G unequivocally said "yes, we are treaty bound to defend them".

now tell me some of us are being hysterical...

So what? That tells us nothing we didn't already know years ago. It's the only response I'd expect NATO to give, and its a hypothetical situation that has nothing to do with any of the realities of whats happened in Ukraine.

Both sides would have to push themselves a lot further apart and towards conflict before this sort of thing would make me twitch.

Nope, I won't be losing any sleep over these crude attempts to mask recent impotence and inaction with tough talk. Beyond that I don't know exactly what calculations each side is making over the Ukraine at the moment. But NATO etc certainly have a number of reasons to hype the threat of Russian invasion, including being able to make out its some kind of NATO victory if Russia fail to invade.
 
So was much of the Greek Left at the time of the Serbian/Kosovo conflict, iirc there were major ructions on global indymedia about it.

Tony Benn opposed the onslaught on Serbia too .

Large parts of the Latin American left support Russias position on this. German left isnt going nuts over it either. The support of various far right groups for one position or another is irrelevant in my view.
 
and I mentioned the difference between Concentration camp and Extermination camp, I also mentioned that the Soviet Union did not come close to the Extermination camps, although my gut feeling is that they felt they did not need to go that far, building and re-building railways through the arctic tundra and digging canals that would never be used were just as effective, if somewhat slower, as the gas chamber.

The intent of the Concentration camps and the Gulag were similar in that they were both intended to remove "undesirables" from society, with death being the ultimate "removal" a secondary priority in both cases was to extract as much work from the victims as possible.

You've said the Nazi extermination camps (specifically designed and built for the mass murder of targeted ethnic groups) and the labour camp and colony system under the administration of Gulag had similar intents. Really? No gut feelings, please. Some serious thinking about how and why you think that. And if someone disagrees with your views don't then try and dismiss them as if they're making an argument in support of Stalinism.

Both systems were abhorrent, and both systems were different in their purposes. And why can't we widen the scope and look at what powers other less authoritarian/non-totalitarian states have had (and do have) to deal with people who oppose them or are seen as enemies? Not just Nazism and Stalinised Marxism-Leninism. The Nazis believed in the coming of a new order based on racial hierarchy, the Stalinists believed in the coming of a new unified world based on a centralised, planned economy being able to deliver eventual full communism (as they understood it).

The only other example you could give earlier was Democratic Kampuchea, in which its ruling Communist Party did, in its own way, strive for what the earlier Stalinists had done; the changes that would've occurred under capitalism anyway were to be forced through under revolutionary control at an even more accelerated pace than had been attempted elsewhere, while also telescoping the crude, mechanistic 'stages' of M-L doctrine in the development of socialism and eventual communism (but that's for another thread). DK prisons weren't the same as Nazi concentration camps. Their misnamed 'cooperative' system operated along different lines to the Soviet Gulag system. It isn't apologism to point that out. It is, among other things, about not being arrogant and lazy.
 
You've said the Nazi extermination camps (specifically designed and built for the mass murder of targeted ethnic groups) and the labour camp and colony system under the administration of Gulag had similar intents. Really? No gut feelings, please. Some serious thinking about how and why you think that. And if someone disagrees with your views don't then try and dismiss them as if they're making an argument in support of Stalinism.

Both systems were abhorrent, and both systems were different in their purposes. And why can't we widen the scope and look at what powers other less authoritarian/non-totalitarian states have had (and do have) to deal with people who oppose them or are seen as enemies? Not just Nazism and Stalinised Marxism-Leninism. The Nazis believed in the coming of a new order based on racial hierarchy, the Stalinists believed in the coming of a new unified world based on a centralised, planned economy being able to deliver eventual full communism (as they understood it).

The only other example you could give earlier was Democratic Kampuchea, in which its ruling Communist Party did, in its own way, strive for what the earlier Stalinists had done; the changes that would've occurred under capitalism anyway were to be forced through under revolutionary control at an even more accelerated pace than had been attempted elsewhere, while also telescoping the crude, mechanistic 'stages' of M-L doctrine in the development of socialism and eventual communism (but that's for another thread). DK prisons weren't the same as Nazi concentration camps. Their misnamed 'cooperative' system operated along different lines to the Soviet Gulag system. It isn't apologism to point that out. It is, among other things, about not being arrogant and lazy.
I'll answer this fully later, I have a plane to catch heading for the war zone, but one thing I will say is I never compared the Extermination camps to the Gulag, in fact I stated that the Soviet Union had nothing comparable, a couple of times. So poke it!
 
[38] Of the 10,000-12,000 Poles sent to Kolyma in 1940–41, most prisoners of war, only 583 men survived, released in 1942 to join the Polish Armed Forces in the East.[39] Out of Anders' 80,000 evacuees from Soviet Union gathered in Great Britain only 310 volunteered to return to Soviet-controlled Poland in 1947.[40]

Sooooooo not extermination just a 95% death rate.:eek:
Yes soviet style communism is a true alternative sign me up comrade:facepalm:
 
Nope, I won't be losing any sleep over these crude attempts to mask recent impotence and inaction with tough talk. Beyond that I don't know exactly what calculations each side is making over the Ukraine at the moment. But NATO etc certainly have a number of reasons to hype the threat of Russian invasion, including being able to make out its some kind of NATO victory if Russia fail to invade.

Also a lot of this has to be about NATO carving out a role for themselves, trying to make themselves relevant in the post cold war era. I don't think any of the NATO leadership really give a fuck about Ukraine and even less so about the Crimea, it just gives them an excuse to talk up their own significance, and of course, funding.
 
did they agree or disagree with it at the time though. That appears to be the crux of his beef. The evidence would point to a lot of agreement with it among a lot of people outside the corridors of power.

The problem is that the historical record for the most part only tells us what the media, and by extension the owners of the media wanted or believed. I don't, for example, take the likes of John Bull to be practical demonstrations of what people believed, but rather what Horatio Bottomley M.P. believed. That some people took up his prejudices is certain, but we're never going to know whether it was a majority of readers, or a minority.

And why short clean wars ...which tend to require a strong force overcoming a weaker force...have usually been vote winners.

Although, to put that in context, until the interwar years, the franchise wasn't universal, it was men over 21, and until the 1960s, the electorate still wasn't a truly "universal" one, of all adults who'd reached their legal majority (18). So the question becomes "winning whose votes?". The only "vote winner" war I can think of in recent history is the 1983 election and the "Falklands effect", and even then, there were other factors militating toward a narrow Conservative victory, even discounting the war. Most of the post-war (post)-colonial wars were solid vote-losers, if the public paid any attention at all, which was usually only when British troops got killed.
 
What actual coherent, objective evidence of this do you have, I wonder...

When was the working class of Britain ever consulted about the Imperial policy of the British State in the period of establishment of empire, either in detail or in general?

It's certainly the case that, in terms of official rhetoric, lack of public protest has historically invariably been taken as approval of policy by the ruling classes, even when lack of protest was down mostly to legislation (as it was during several instances in the 19th century).
 
ITV News, James Mates interviewed the NATO General Secretary and asked him, will you go to war if Russia tries to occupy Poland or the Baltic states, The S/G unequivocally said "yes, we are treaty bound to defend them".

now tell me some of us are being hysterical...

We were actually "treaty-bound" to defend Ukraine too, and guess what...?
 
Anyone else notice this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-26882664

But at least one commission member suggests Darth Vader's campaign could be an attempt to discredit the upcoming election - possibly by Russia, which does not recognise the Ukraine's interim government. "It may seem like an innocent joke, but someone paid 2.5m hryvnyas ($227,000) for this joke," says Ihor Zhydenko, referring to the deposit that must be given along with the application

I have to say that my esteem of the FSB would increase if this was to become their man in Kiev :D
 
Ukraine's ultra-nationalist Right Sector movement has been extremely active during the Euromaidan protests, but Kiev is now moving to disarm the group. On Monday the 31st of March, one Right Sector member instigated a shoot-out outside a restaurant. Three people were injured, including a city official.

In response, riot police surrounded the Dnipro Hotel, which the group was using as its headquarters. The group was forced to vacate the building without its weapons and move to a base outside Kiev. Simon Ostrovsky of VICE News was there as the events unfolded.
 
Re. Darth Vader

I'm sure he featured on last year's Stacey Dooley documentary about the drug trade in Ukraine. (ie he is a pre-existing social campaigner who uses using ironic humour rather than a Russian anything - although of course maybe someone in Moscow has now decided to make a large donation towards his deposit?)

eg.
 
It's over for Crimea....the ultimate sanction.
McDonald's closed its three restaurants in Crimea as it evaluates the "evolving situation" on the Black Sea peninsula, weeks after its annexation by Russia following a referendum held in the wake of Ukraine's political upheavals.

The world's biggest hamburger chain said Friday that the closures were "strictly a business decision which has nothing to do with politics." It cited the suspension of financial and banking services and said it is evaluating the potential business and regulatory implications of the situation.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/4/mcdonald-s-exitscrimea.html
 
Re. Darth Vader

I'm sure he featured on last year's Stacey Dooley documentary about the drug trade in Ukraine. (ie he is a pre-existing social campaigner who uses using ironic humour rather than a Russian anything - although of course maybe someone in Moscow has now decided to make a large donation towards his deposit?)

Yeah, the claim he is a Russian stooge sounds like Fuchs-style paranoia.
 
What is 'soviet style communism'?

And what point are you trying to make?
images
seem's pretty evident to me. Both regimes could be murderous. Nazis just had genocide as a policy .Stalin just wanted to get rid of opponents and problems.
 
Stalin didn't just want to do that, did he? And who here has said otherwise that both could be murderous? It's pretty obvious isn't it. What is not so obvious to some here are the significant differences between Nazism and Stalinism. Even likesfish liked my post after bothering to read it (his first reaction was to skim-read a Wikipedia entry).

Still waiting Fuchs66, instead of the passive-aggressive liking of others' posts.
 
Stalin didn't just want to do that, did he? And who here has said otherwise that both could be murderous? It's pretty obvious isn't it. What is not so obvious to some here are the significant differences between Nazism and Stalinism. Even likesfish liked my post after bothering to read it (his first reaction was to skim-read a Wikipedia entry).

Still waiting Fuchs66, instead of the passive-aggressive liking of others' posts.
Nah fuck you, got more important things to do than constantly point out your crap interpretations of everything I write. Is that "active aggressive" enough for you?
 
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