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More powerful from you? Why because the guy going on about being stuck in Israel has a Jewish name? Ffs. Also it seems like he is trying to do some sort of impression of an Iranian accent, ffs
 
likesfish said:
Diffrence is those oaths are not taken by school kids who have no choice in the matter yes some schools have cadet forces but not every school.
The british state has not collapsed its evolved into a much better state.
The Soviets had high ideals unfortunatly the ideals in practice were bollocks.
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Right, there is no element of coercion forcing a new British citizen to give that oath.

I thought the pioneer movement was/is basically their version of scouts and entirely optional.
 
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A new British citizen is an Adult and has a choice you have to actively seek to be a uk citizen.
Imho the american practice of getting kids to repeat the oath of algedence is creepy as hell as well :eek:

Not optional at all no other youth orgs allowed one party all the time but no cake:( Big hats though :)
 
DairyQueen said:
ill

I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will well and truly serve our Sovereign Lady Queen Victoria in the office of (Insert judicial office of), and I will do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this realm, without fear or favour, affection or ill will. So help me God.
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likesfish said:
Because obviously a mass deportation carried out by communists is a wonderful adventure holiday:rolleyes:

Compare contrast
Solemn promise of a pioneer of the Soviet Union

I (surname, given name), having now joined the ranks of the All-Union Pioneer Organization "Vladimir Illich Lenin", in front of my comrades solemnly promise: to passionately love my fatherland, to live, study, and fight as bequeathed by the Great Lenin, as the Communist Party teaches, and always carry out the laws of the Pioneers of the Soviet Union.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth
Pledge of Allegiance
"In the presence of this blood banner which represents our Führer, I swear to devote all my energies and my strength to the savior of our country, Adolf Hitler. I am willing and ready to give up my life for him, so help me God."
Click to expand...

To reductio the absurdam:

Here's to Good King Billy
Who saved us from Popes and popery
And Knaves and knavery
And wooden shoes and brass money.

And may whomever denies this oath
be stuffed in the barrel of the great gun of Athlone
and the gun fired into the Pope's belly,
and the Pope fired into the Devil's belly,
and the Devil fired into Hell,
and the Gate slammed and locked tight,
and the key safely in an Orangeman's Pocket.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Some generalisations can be made, the body counts are significant in all the mentioned cases, the details don't matter that much to the victims.
Click to expand...

well the body count in Bengal under British occupation in the 1940s was pretty massive, millions of civilians very deliberately starved to death by means of forcibly removing their food supply . Aid deliberately turned away on Churchills orders simply because he had an irrational and murderous hatred of that particular racial group . That were under armed British occupation.
So tell us what was the difference between British imperialism and nazi Imperialism. Where does British imperialisms moral superiority to nazism or Stalinism derive from ?
 
Idris2002 said:
To reductio the absurdam:

Here's to Good King Billy
Who saved us from Popes and popery
And Knaves and knavery
And wooden shoes and brass money.

And may whomever denies this oath
be stuffed in the barrel of the great gun of Athlone
and the gun fired into the Pope's belly,
and the Pope fired into the Devil's belly,
and the Devil fired into Hell,
and the Gate slammed and locked tight,
and the key safely in an Orangeman's Pocket.
Click to expand...



It was gold and it was beautiful and it cost 2 pence a gram
He scored it on the ferry coming back from Amsterdam
He said it's just like Lebanese from the bygone days of yore
And when I can I like to smoke the hash my father scored

That green grass and resin so fine
It gives you a feeling divine
It would raise both the dying and the living
That green grass and resin so fine.

When my father died he left to me his house and all his tin
I opened the Good book and found a Kilo stashed within
And now when I'm unhappy and sometimes when I'm bored
I light a spliff in memory of the hash my father scored

That green grass and resin so fine
It gives you a feeling divine
It would raise both the dying and the living
That green grass and resin so fine.

But now the years have passed and gone and all that hash has flown
You can't get stuff like that these days I've even tried home-grown
But I can still remember how upward I have soared
Outflying British Airways on the hash my father scored

That green grass and resin so fine
It gives you a feeling divine
It would raise both the dying and the living
That green grass and resin so fine.

It was gold and it was beautiful and it cost 2 pence a gram
He scored it on the ferry coming back from Amsterdam
He said it's just like Lebanese from the bygone days of yore
And when I can I like to smoke the hash my father scored
 
Casually Red said:
well the body count in Bengal under British occupation in the 1940s was pretty massive, millions of civilians very deliberately starved to death . Aid deliberately turned away on Churchills orders simply because he had an irrational and murderous hatred of that particular racial group . That were under armed British occupation.
So tell us what was the difference between British imperialism and nazi Imperialism. Where does British imperialisms moral superiority to nazism derive from ?
Click to expand...
Did I ever say I supported British Imperialism or any other (including Russian, French, Spanish, American etc etc etc) Imperialism?

The answer you require though requires more than a quick off the cuff answer on a thread like this and more time than I can spare for you.

Not sure what you're expecting from this tbh.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Sorry wasn't so clear on my last comment, I blame the wine, but his main argument against the Ukrainian interim government is the presence of radical right wing groups and yet he unquestioningly supports the past cooperation with THE Nazi regime by groups that he is more sympathetic with. Maybe my comment should have been "Ha, hypocritical wanker"!
I think any support of nazi/fascist/far-right governments by the British government or anyone in the past or now should be criticised.
Click to expand...

Your comparison is is both absurd and disingenuous. The IRA in that period patently did not adopt nazi ideology, in fact refused to . Its members had just spent the 1930s fighting fascists at home, its leaders openly denouncing fascism as a disease. They were offered military technology and expertise by the German military and accepted it. They also secured the release of Irelands foremost leftist guerilla leader Frank Ryan from a fascist jail cell in Spain, were hed been jailed for leading a brigade fighting against Franco and faced the death penalty. They did not advocate or participate in the killing of jews or any other ethnic minority or persue any type of fascist agenda.
The right sector and the other fascist groups in Ukraine however most certainly are neo nazis and they openly revel in a past of Banderite ethnic slaughter. They openly espouse an agenda of ethnic hatred against racial groups in Ukraine and further afield. They promote odious ideals such as white power.
Theres no comparison between the 2 positions
They also didnt deliberately starve millions of captive subjects to death simply out of race hatred, unlike the British army in Bengal.
 
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Casually Red said:
Your comparison is is both absurd and disingenuous. The IRA in that period patently did not adopt nazi ideology, in fact refused to . Its members had just spent the 1930s fighting fascists at home. They were offered military technology and expertise by the German military and accepted it. They also secured the release of Irelands foremost leftist guerilla leader Frank Ryan from a fascist jail cell in Spain, were hed been jailed for leading a brigade fighting against Franco and faced the death penalty. They did not advocate or participate in the killing of jews or any other ethnic minority or persue any type of fascist agenda.
The right sector and the other fascist groups in Ukraine however most certainly are neo nazis and they openly revel in a past of Banderite ethnic slaughter. They openly espouse an agenda of ethnic hatred against racial groups in Ukraine and further afield. They promote odious ideals such as white power.
Theres no comparison between the 2 positions
They also didnt deliberately starve millions of captive subjects to death simply out of race hatred, unlike the British army in Bengal.
Click to expand...
Oh alright then you convinced me, collaboration with the Nazi regime was OK if the collaborators in question were nice guys who loved their Mums and helped old people over the road.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Did I ever say I supported British Imperialism or any other (including Russian, French, Spanish, American etc etc etc) Imperialism?

The answer you require though requires more than a quick off the cuff answer on a thread like this and more time than I can spare for you.

Not sure what you're expecting from this tbh.
Click to expand...

the nazis deliberately killed millions in Europe out of irrational racial hatred. The British empire deliberately killed millions in Bengal due to Churchills irrational race hatred. Accepting military assistance from the wehrmacht isnt any more morally repugnant than accepting it from the British empire, as communist partisans did . Its simply a military organisation with very limited resources accepting an offer of enhanced resources and capabilities from a foreign military power.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Oh alright then you convinced me, collaboration with the Nazi regime was OK if the collaborators in question were nice guys who loved their Mums and helped old people over the road.
Click to expand...

Yes but your Ukrainian heroes did collaborate and the IRA didn't, that's the obvious difference here.
 
J Ed said:
Yes but your Ukrainian heroes did collaborate and the IRA didn't, that's the obvious difference here.
Click to expand...

It was also a situation were they didnt have a lot of choice. Sean Russel was stranded in the united states facing deportation to either Britain or Dublin, he was technically still a British citizen. Under wartime rules that may well have been a death sentence in either jursidiction. DeValera was executing IRA leaders left right and centre. Frank Ryan was facing a certain death sentence in Spain.
The Abwehr stepped in and offered to smuggle him out as well as securing Ryans release from Spain. The principled thing to i suppose would have been to say no thanks, I prefer to be excuted.
Irish nazi collaborator Francis Stuart who was present during Russels stay also reported that Ryan made clear to his hosts neither he nor the IRA wanted anything to do with their ideology. They just wanted their expertise, which was primarily in the manufacture of home made explosives. Russell himself had been assisting the soviets for the past 20 years.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...v=onepage&q=sean russell soviet agent&f=false
 
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likesfish said:
A new British citizen is an Adult and has a choice you have to actively seek to be a uk citizen.
Imho the american practice of getting kids to repeat the oath of algedence is creepy as hell as well :eek:

Not optional at all no other youth orgs allowed one party all the time but no cake:( Big hats though :)
Click to expand...

People even took the piss out of it (and wider Soviet rule).
 
Fuchs66 said:
I would say that the Gulag and the German concentration camps bore many resemblances. The extermination camps were technologically, a level above anything that the Soviet Union came up with but the intents were similar, the basis for those intents varied somewhat that's all.
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So just to be clear, you're claiming the the intent of the Gulag was the systematic genocide of particular ethnic groups?
 
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camouflage said:
Well to be fair Britain was a super-power at one point, and its reach extended across the oceans, it had many colonies and 'interests'. This reminds me of a time when speaking to an American guy decrying "how come according to you people everything is Americas fault, like we're all powerful or something" in a discussion about South-America and the Muddle East.

I told him I wouldn't say the US is all-powerful... then I asked him why he thought the US was referred to as a "hyper-power".
Click to expand...

Who/what is "Britain"? What makes you or CR assume that the state's historical and/or current interests are my own, or that most w/c people in Britain have ever had any say in state policy?
We both know the answer to those questions, don't we?
 
Fuchs66 said:
and then gave me your bullshit interpretation of it which bore little resemblance to what I wrote


There are several good sources for example:



Quote from Gulag; Anne Appelbaum

But I'm sure you won't be searching too hard will you?
Click to expand...

Anne Applebaum. I lost any respect I had for her journalism 10 or more years ago, when I read one of her articles (Spectator, IIRC), which was basically a re-write of a Richard Pipes rant (in case you're not aware, Pipes is a "Polish American" spook-friendly anti-communist author). Like Pipes, Applebaum (also a "Polish American") is very Poland-centric, in that it can be said to "colour" their interpretations of the history of the region.
I suppose I'll have to read her book now, see if she's introduced some rigour to her work. :)
 
likesfish said:
Because obviously a mass deportation carried out by communists is a wonderful adventure holiday:rolleyes:

Compare contrast
Solemn promise of a pioneer of the Soviet Union

I (surname, given name), having now joined the ranks of the All-Union Pioneer Organization "Vladimir Illich Lenin", in front of my comrades solemnly promise: to passionately love my fatherland, to live, study, and fight as bequeathed by the Great Lenin, as the Communist Party teaches, and always carry out the laws of the Pioneers of the Soviet Union.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth
Pledge of Allegiance
"In the presence of this blood banner which represents our Führer, I swear to devote all my energies and my strength to the savior of our country, Adolf Hitler. I am willing and ready to give up my life for him, so help me God."
Click to expand...

All you're showing is that authoritarian and/or totalitarian regimes used to function on a cult of personality, where dedication to a leader and the leader's ideology was demanded. That doesn't show similarity of political practice, or even similarity of results, it merely shows the fairly-obvious totalitarian disregard for the lives of individuals over the life of the ideology.
 
Casually Red said:
the nazis deliberately killed millions in Europe out of irrational racial hatred. The British empire deliberately killed millions in Bengal due to Churchills irrational race hatred. Accepting military assistance from the wehrmacht isnt any more morally repugnant than accepting it from the British empire, as communist partisans did . Its simply a military organisation with very limited resources accepting an offer of enhanced resources and capabilities from a foreign military power.
Click to expand...

The Famine Inquiry Commission (1945) documents a large number of administrative, civil policy and military policy failures. Significantly, no other famine-struck country has published such criticisms of its own government’s actions. The failure to set up a food administration in 1939 and prepare for rationing was the key failure. The failure to enforce an India-wide food policy with an equality of sacrifice was another. Without this, the administrative controls must prevent any meaningful intervention. Political and administrative failures to set up a system for seizing surplus food in surplus areas also contributed (it was acceptable in deficit areas). There were many others which added to local shortages or otherwise increased the death rate, (e.g. Boat Denial Policy, Rice Denial Policy, various purchasing policies) but were not causes of the famine. During the Famine Inquiry Commission's investigation, one official stated that 'We felt difficulty about one thing. That was lack of one co-ordinating authority at the time of famine'[64]

churchill was a racist but the Battle of the atlantic was raging at the time and while the food could have been got to india getting it too bengal was probematical at best. Like most famines their was plenty of food in the country but in the wrong place unlike the Nazis this was a massive cock up amd when Wavell used the military the problem was solved :(
 
ViolentPanda said:
Anne Applebaum. I lost any respect I had for her journalism 10 or more years ago, when I read one of her articles (Spectator, IIRC), which was basically a re-write of a Richard Pipes rant (in case you're not aware, Pipes is a "Polish American" spook-friendly anti-communist author). Like Pipes, Applebaum (also a "Polish American") is very Poland-centric, in that it can be said to "colour" their interpretations of the history of the region.
I suppose I'll have to read her book now, see if she's introduced some rigour to her work. :)
Click to expand...
It's an interesting book, I read it over a 6 week period of working in Russia, caused a few raised eyebrows.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Who/what is "Britain"? What makes you or CR assume that the state's historical and/or current interests are my own, or that most w/c people in Britain have ever had any say in state policy?
We both know the answer to those questions, don't we?
Click to expand...

Or as it was known back in those days, England (even the Scottish, Welsh and Irish bits apparently).

And enough whinning about how the "w/c" had nothing to do with it, or were just standing there when it all went down. These the same "w/c" that filled the ranks and marched proudly off in their shinny red uniforms to subdue the Fuzzywuzzies and weild the Maxim Gun and sing "Britains never never never. Shall. Be. Slaves!"

Yes, all along they were being scammed by the ruling class but dare to ask them as a group where they stood- "For King & Country. To the Hilt". I think you're deluding yourself with all this poor befuddled little-lost-lamb working class rubbish. For the most part the people that fed the coal to the heart of the firey beast were not shy to participate in the great adventure to take from the Zulus or the Indians whatever they had and give to themselves. Civilizing mission, God and Country, Land etc.

Go ask an Australian Aboriginal what solidarity they received from the w/c of this country? Fucking own up to it, if you can wave the flag then you can tolerate the drops of blood that drip from it all over your clean blue collar shirt. I accept responsibility for it, I'm involved, I know that I now live in a society that has blessed itself with generations of investment in itself of the wealth it took from others, and that I now enjoy the infrastructure and facilities of living here instead of some busted-up post-apocalyptical 3rd world ruin of our former victims. And I don't even wave the flag.

Don't get me wrong, not like I'm 'going after' anyone on this sort of thing because nobody gets to control the actions of their ancestors, but you come over to me as far too keen to make out that something called the 'w/c' had fuck all to do with anything, when actually they did, they were the enablers.
 
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redsquirrel said:
So just to be clear, you're claiming the the intent of the Gulag was the systematic genocide of particular ethnic groups?
Click to expand...
Just to be clear, no! And at no point have I stated this, nor mentioned targeting ethnic groups nor mentioned genocide!

It was certainly designed to dispose of a certain "group" of people i.e. anybody unlucky enough to be deemed a threat to the State.
 
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camouflage said:
Or as it was known back in those days, England (even the Scottish, Welsh and Irish bits apparently).

And enough whinning about how the "w/c" had nothing to do with it, or were just standing there when it all went down. These the same "w/c" that filled the ranks and marched proudly off in their shinny red uniforms to subdue the Fuzzywuzzies and weild the Maxim Gun and sing "Britains never never never. Shall. Be. Slaves!"

Yes, all along they were being scammed by the ruling class but dare to ask them as a group where they stood- "For King & Country. To the Hilt". I think you're deluding yourself with all this poor befuddled little-lost-lamb working class rubbish. For the most part the people that fed the coal to the heart of the firey beast were not shy to participate in the great adventure to take from the Zulus or the Indians whatever they had and give to themselves. Civilizing mission, God and Country, Land etc.

Go ask an Australian Aboriginal what solidarity they received from the w/c of this country? Fucking own up to it, if you can wave the flag then you can tolerate the drops of blood that drip from it all over your clean blue collar shirt. I accept responsibility for it, I'm involved, I know that I now live in a society that has blessed itself with generations of investment in itself of the wealth it took from others, and that I now enjoy the infrastructure and facilities that result instead of living here instead of some busted-up post-apocalyptical 3rd world ruin of our former victims. And I don't even wave the flag.

Don't get me wrong, not like I'm 'going after' anyone on this sort of thing because nobody gets to control the actions of their ancestors, but you come over to me as far too keen to make out that something called the 'w/c' had fuck all to do with anything, when actually they did, they were the enablers.
Click to expand...

I didn't say that the working class had nothing to do with it, I said that we have and had no say in state policy. :facepalm:
 
Fuchs66 said:
Just to be clear, no! And at no point have I stated this, nor mentioned targeting ethnic groups nor mentioned genocide!
Click to expand...
No you claimed that the intent of the Nazi extermination camps was the same as the Gulag. So either you must believe that that the death camps were not designed for the extermination of specie ethnic groups, or you must believe that the Gulug were designed for the extermination of specie ethnic groups. Alternatively you where talking rubbish and the intent behind them was very different.

Fuchs66 said:
It was certainly designed to dispose of a certain "group" of people i.e. anybody unlucky enough to be deemed a threat to the State
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What do you mean by "dispose of"?
 
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