Ukraine

[Fuchs66]

It's always the fault of "the brits", dontcherknow?

Of course it is, I self flagellate every evening before I go to bed to assuage my crushing feelings of guilt.

 

[Idris2002]

Just a teensy little point of order with regard to the above: There was no "direct British collaboration" in the sense of state collaboration over Czech state bullion deposits. The Bank of England (where the gold was deposited, according to Bower and a metric fucktonne of other researchers, rather than "London bank vaults") is a private institution that remitted the gold bullion to the rulers of Czechoslovakia. Blame Montagu Norman for not being sufficiently anti-fascist.

Did that play a role in Attlee's decision to nationalise the BoE, I wonder?

 

[Set]

Ukrainian saviour is here... Beware, Ukrainian people. Your salvage is coming. Most great Poroshenko has already registered as presidential nominee. Mighty Klitschko himself gave the wall to this outstanding man.
Seriously though I've been in Tchernovtsy for two weeks because I control closing of Ukrainian branch of our company. And I'm already fed up with this naïve straightforward propaganda pouring from local TV. This Presidential election promise to be a total circus with Darth Vader participation. And the election candidate having most chances to win is a rich businessman with great prestige in Ukrainian criminal world once again. Several years ago he organized several false foundations gathering stock from common Ukrainians deceiving and blackmailing and even killing people. Now that notorious Pravy Sector supports this ambitious and budding candidate for Presidency.
With such leader I can easily imagine future of Ukraine. In fact it won't differ from its past. Just arse it's going in would be deeper and deeper.

 

[articul8]

Are there any anti-fascist groups organising in the Western Ukraine? or leftists other than the Left Opposition (USFI, or whatever the Mandelites are these days)?

 

[camouflage]

It's always the fault of "the brits", dontcherknow?

Well to be fair Britain was a super-power at one point, and its reach extended across the oceans, it had many colonies and 'interests'. This reminds me of a time when speaking to an American guy decrying "how come according to you people everything is Americas fault, like we're all powerful or something" in a discussion about South-America and the Muddle East.

I told him I wouldn't say the US is all-powerful... then I asked him why he thought the US was referred to as a "hyper-power".

 

[DairyQueen]

Sorry wasn't so clear on my last comment, I blame the wine, but his main argument against the Ukrainian interim government is the presence of radical right wing groups and yet he unquestioningly supports the past cooperation with THE Nazi regime by groups that he is more sympathetic with. Maybe my comment should have been "Ha, hypocritical wanker"!
I think any support of nazi/fascist/far-right governments by the British government or anyone in the past or now should be criticised.

What the fuck that has to do with...

As far as Greece was concerned I guess it was seen at that time as the best choice between 2 extremes don't know enough about the details to comment with confidence though.

 

[DairyQueen]

The only practical diffrence is the nazis had a genocidal fixation with the jews communisits had a more political approach to mass murder.

Right, lets ignore the entire basis of the Soviet economy, the completely different types of social engineering that occurred, the completely different foreign policy, the reasons for mass deportations in communist countries, and countless other fundamental differences. No, gulags = Nazi death camps, thus USSR = Third Reich.

 

[Fuchs66]

What the fuck that has to do with...

Nothing much seeing as one was to do mainly with collaboration with German Nazis and the other mainly to do with my guess as to the reason why the UK backed the right side of the political spectrum in Greece. Also each post is in reply to a different poster so of course they are somewhat different but the main thrust is the same.

Do you want me to repost with key words such as "guess" highlighted? You are obviously having problems grasping what I am saying.

 

[Fuchs66]

Right, lets ignore the entire basis of the Soviet economy, the completely different types of social engineering that occurred, the completely different foreign policy, the reasons for mass deportations in communist countries, and countless other fundamental differences. No, gulags = Nazi death camps, thus USSR = Third Reich.

I'm sure the Gulag internees would have appreciated that difference.

 

[DairyQueen]

I'm sure the Gulag internees would have appreciated that difference.

Well, why don't you fucking tell us.

 

[DairyQueen]

Do you want me to repost with key words such as "guess" highlighted? You are obviously having problems grasping what I am saying.

No, I told you what I had a problem with.

 

[Fuchs66]

Well, why don't you fucking tell us.

Tell you what?

I realise you have comprehension problems but you really should frame your questions a bit better.

 

[Fuchs66]

No, I told you what I had a problem with.

Yes and it was based upon a fictional version of what I wrote

 

[DairyQueen]

Yes and it was based upon a fictional version of what I wrote

I quoted what you said.

Tell you what?
I realise you have comprehension problems but you really should frame your questions a bit better.

What gulag internees thoughts are.

Jesus Christ.

 

[Fuchs66]

I quoted what you said.

and then gave me your bullshit interpretation of it which bore little resemblance to what I wrote

gulag internees thoughts are.

Jesus Christ.

There are several good sources for example:

As we approached the gate, I thought for a moment that I must be having a bad dream: a naked corpse was suspended from the gatepost. Its hands and feet were bound with wire, its head was sunk to one side, the rigid eyes were half open. Above the head was a board with the inscription: "This is the fate of all those who try to escape from Norilsk."

Quote from Gulag; Anne Appelbaum

But I'm sure you won't be searching too hard will you?

 

[likesfish]

Because obviously a mass deportation carried out by communists is a wonderful adventure holiday

Compare contrast
Solemn promise of a pioneer of the Soviet Union

I (surname, given name), having now joined the ranks of the All-Union Pioneer Organization "Vladimir Illich Lenin", in front of my comrades solemnly promise: to passionately love my fatherland, to live, study, and fight as bequeathed by the Great Lenin, as the Communist Party teaches, and always carry out the laws of the Pioneers of the Soviet Union.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth
Pledge of Allegiance
"In the presence of this blood banner which represents our Führer, I swear to devote all my energies and my strength to the savior of our country, Adolf Hitler. I am willing and ready to give up my life for him, so help me God."

 

[DairyQueen]

ill

Because obviously a mass deportation carried out by communists is a wonderful adventure holiday

Compare contrast
Solemn promise of a pioneer of the Soviet Union

I (surname, given name), having now joined the ranks of the All-Union Pioneer Organization "Vladimir Illich Lenin", in front of my comrades solemnly promise: to passionately love my fatherland, to live, study, and fight as bequeathed by the Great Lenin, as the Communist Party teaches, and always carry out the laws of the Pioneers of the Soviet Union.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth
Pledge of Allegiance
"In the presence of this blood banner which represents our Führer, I swear to devote all my energies and my strength to the savior of our country, Adolf Hitler. I am willing and ready to give up my life for him, so help me God."

I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will well and truly serve our Sovereign Lady Queen Victoria in the office of (Insert judicial office of), and I will do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this realm, without fear or favour, affection or ill will. So help me God.

 

[DairyQueen]

But I'm sure you won't be searching too hard will you?

But the debate would be: Gulags were the same as Nazi death camps. I am saying they were not.

 

[Fuchs66]

But the debate would be: Gulags were the same as Nazi death camps. I am saying they were not.

I would say that the Gulag and the German concentration camps bore many resemblances. The extermination camps were technologically, a level above anything that the Soviet Union came up with but the intents were similar, the basis for those intents varied somewhat that's all.

 

[DairyQueen]

The German concentration camps bear resemblances with lots of different prison systems. In fact, a load of lefties write to that affect. My problem is that you choose to draw resemblances between this and the Gulag as opposed to others.

 

[Fuchs66]

The Gulag and German concentration camps bear resemblances with lots of different prison systems. In fact, a load of lefties write to that affect. My problem is that you choose to draw resemblances between these two and not others.

Oh yes Pol Pot's system was similar too, as in they were set up to systematically dispose of enemies of the State.

 

[DairyQueen]

Every prison system - in one way or another - systematically disposes of enemies of the State. That's the whole point.

 

[Fuchs66]

Every prison system - in one way or another - systematically disposes of enemies of the State. That's the whole point.

Not normally as the main purpose

 

[DairyQueen]

... and what do you think the stated aim of the gulags were?

 

[Fuchs66]

... and what do you think the stated aim of the gulags were?

It's Gulag, singular.

And as to the Stated aim that would to a large part depend on when as the Stated Aim varied somewhat depending on who was signing the orders. However we shouldn't judge the camps on the "stated aim of the Gulag" which was more often than not political whitewash, but rather on what actually took place within them.

 

[seventh bullet]

Gulag was the acronym for the specific bureaucracy dealing with the labour camp system.

 

[Fuchs66]

Gulag was the acronym for the specific bureaucracy dealing with the labour camp system.

Correct, originally it was.

 

[seventh bullet]

Oh yes Pol Pot's system was similar too, as in they were set up to systematically dispose of enemies of the State.

No it wasn't, at all.

 

[Fuchs66]

No it wasn't, at all.

So Pol Pot's system of prisons and execution centres wasn't for disposing of those that were deemed enemies of the State?

 

[seventh bullet]

So Pol Pot's system of prisons and execution centres wasn't for disposing of those that were deemed enemies of the State?

I think you were confusing the prisons with the cooperative system (based on the much smaller Vietnamese-taught 'solidarity production teams') in which most of the country's population was placed and where most deaths occurred (not through execution), and which underwent varying degrees of collectivisation. Let's not paint with big broad brush strokes when it comes to EVIL COMMUNISTS.