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Ukraine

Fuchs66 said:
Yes and we all know what happened to Yushchenko when he started daring to say things that Russia didn't like the sound of.
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Hed also fallen out with that suspected murderess , habitual thief , jailbird , associate of known gangsters and would be ethnic cleanser Tymoshenko . And was much more of an immediate rival and threat to her than he was to Russia. But as she was regarded by the west as the blonde angel of the east at the time it was more convenient to lay the blame at Russias door .
 
Coolfonz said:
No surprise to hear you talk like that about Farage after the stuff you wrote about immigration pulling down wages.

Maybe you might like to look at the pre-austerity governments of Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal and their insane economic policies and lies. That was where the EU fucked up, allowing those governments to get away with murder for years.

As for 50pc youth unemployment in Spain, no way. It's outrageously high but it isn't anywhere near 50pc.

And a nazi got executed in Ukraine. Stuff happens...
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well if we look at the figures at the end of last august spanish youth unemployment was 56.1 percent, up 2 percent in 2 months. And thats bearing in mind a trip to Paris or Berlin will see you running into hordes of Spanish youngsters pretty much everywhere. Mass emigration has softened the blow somewhat .

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/30/spain-youth-unemployment-record-high

and by January of this year despite the youth still flooding out of the country it stood at 57.7 percent . Which I suppose could either be a sign of it slowing down or emigration speeding up .

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/spains-you...its-57-7-europe-faces-lost-generation-1431480

so you appear to be talking out of your hole ,while another poster has pointed out how your talking bollocks, which , lets face it, is what a defence of the EU and its savagery towards the working class usually amounts to.

And as someone who lives in Ireland Im well aware of what the policies were . Im also well aware that the Lisbon treaty was rejected by the people at referendum . But that result was overturned after the EU blatantly threatened to destroy the Irish economy . And the very same thing happened again when the people rejected the Nice Treaty, with the same threats to overturn the result or else face armageddon. The same threats were used to do away with the Irish currency, leaving them defenceless . The same type of ultimatums that were forced on Ukraine were forced on Ireland, with the will of the people mattering not a bit .

And the insane economic polices themselves were the result of EU fiscal policies, fuelled by their cheap credit and chronic lack of regulation in reverence to the hidden hand , which naturally enough inflated a bubble. In a country that following EU threats had no currency of its own and no means of lowering or raising interest rates . And no means of defending itself once the bubble inevitably burst . And with its European creditors demanding their money back ahead of hosptial patients, the elderly etc. Or else.

I talk like that about Farage because hes plainly hoovering up support and even making the arguments that most of the British left are too incompetent to challenge the Tories with . Which is a fact especially since Bob Crows death . Its the lefts own fault, not his. But I can see how hes a handy scapegoat for their own irrelevance while the EU marches on trampling over ordinary people . Compared to the EU hes a veritable saint and certainly isnt killing anyone . Nobodys dying of preventable illness or setting themselves on fire because of Nigel Farage . Its a little thing called perspective which you seem to lack along with awareness .

And as regards the Ukrainian junta blatantly executing an embarassing ally while handcuffed , the lesson would appear to be lost only on the most idiotic as to what theyre likely to do to opponents that become a hindrance . Despite the references on this thread to a previous long knife episode.
 
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classicdish said:
What is Putin doing to help stablise Ukraine?

does he have plans for "local pro-russian forces" (aka 'little green men') eastern Ukraine followed up with another 'humanitarian mission'?

What exactly is your objection to holding elections in Ukraine?
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Any plans Vladimir Putin may or may not have discussed with me about military intervention or not are strictly confidential and Id insist you respect that :rolleyes:

As regards Ukraines stability he was spending a lot of time calling on the EU and US leaders to stop destabilising it . They, as we know, refused to listen to those pleas . Resulting in a coup and an unsurprisingly broken state . In a country that was plainly deeply polarised between west and east . It certainly wasnt him who destabilised the place .

In fact now with the Crimea issue settled and that potential powderkeg no longer too close to the flames for comfort , with a ukrainian and Russian military cheek by jowl, a local population that wanted the Ukrainian military out, a Kiev junta preparing to suppress the local population and arrest its leaders...Id say Ukraine is a lot more stable than it might have been .

He hasnt cut the gas subsidy, he isnt insisting on immediate payment on the 2 billion debt..actually even that subsidised gas will go up 40 percent now for the ordinary consumer thanks to IMF insistence in Kiev..He isnt threatening anyone .

And as commonsense would dictate Ukraine is deeply polarised between east and west ebacuse of the coups illegitimacy , and the coup can only impose itself on regions by force the compromise hes suggesting would appear to hold the best hope for future stability .

My objection to holding elections at the moment stems from the very obvious refusal of the self appointed coup who are running them to accept the results of elections that dont go their way . The driving underground of political opponents by legal and extra legal means, the blatant thuggery, fascism and intimidation of politcal opponents and ordinary people right accross Ukraine who dont agree with them . Free and fair elections simply cannot be held in such circumstances.

Heres what happened a few days ago to plainly unarmed ,peaceful and often elderly protestors in Eastern Ukraine when they tried to engage in political activity .



that type of shit is going on all over the place. Holding elections in the middle of that is a farce. Anyone campaigning against the coup runs the real risk of serious injury or death .
 
heres another one, this time in the eastern city of Dnetprovesk . Fash prowling the streets stopping and searching people . Go mental when they find pro Russian badges in peoples pockets . Knives to the neck and all sorts . Luckily there was tv cameras there . And up to their bollocks with some of the cops by the looks of it.



anyone suggesting holding elections in the middle of that is clearly taking the piss . There already was an election . Whats needed is its result to be accepted.
 
Casually Red said:
well if we look at the figures at the end of last august spanish youth unemployment was 56.1 percent, up 2 percent in 2 months. And thats bearing in mind a trip to Paris or Berlin will see you running into hordes of Spanish youngsters pretty much everywhere. Mass emigration has softened the blow somewhat .

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/30/spain-youth-unemployment-record-high

and by January of this year despite the youth still flooding out of the country it stood at 57.7 percent . Which I suppose could either be a sign of it slowing down or emigration speeding up .

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/spains-you...its-57-7-europe-faces-lost-generation-1431480

so you appear to be talking out of your hole ,while another poster has pointed out how your talking bollocks, which , lets face it, is what a defence of the EU and its savagery towards the working class usually amounts to.

And as someone who lives in Ireland Im well aware of what the policies were . Im also well aware that the Lisbon treaty was rejected by the people at referendum . But that result was overturned after the EU blatantly threatened to destroy the Irish economy . And the very same thing happened again when the people rejected the Nice Treaty, with the same threats to overturn the result or else face armageddon. The same threats were used to do away with the Irish currency, leaving them defenceless . The same type of ultimatums that were forced on Ukraine were forced on Ireland, with the will of the people mattering not a bit .

And the insane economic polices themselves were the result of EU fiscal policies, fuelled by their cheap credit and chronic lack of regulation in reverence to the hidden hand , which naturally enough inflated a bubble. In a country that following EU threats had no currency of its own and no means of lowering or raising interest rates . And no means of defending itself once the bubble inevitably burst . And with its European creditors demanding their money back ahead of hosptial patients, the elderly etc. Or else.

I talk like that about Farage because hes plainly hoovering up support and even making the arguments that most of the British left are too incompetent to challenge the Tories with . Which is a fact especially since Bob Crows death . Its the lefts own fault, not his. But I can see how hes a handy scapegoat for their own irrelevance while the EU marches on trampling over ordinary people . Compared to the EU hes a veritable saint and certainly isnt killing anyone . Nobodys dying of preventable illness or setting themselves on fire because of Nigel Farage . Its a little thing called perspective which you seem to lack along with awareness .

And as regards the Ukrainian junta blatantly executing an embarassing ally while handcuffed , the lesson would appear to be lost only on the most idiotic as to what theyre likely to do to opponents that become a hindrance . Despite the references on this thread to a previous long knife episode.
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Utter nonsense from start to finish, but then it is off topic. Keep blaming the immigrants and the EU!
 
DairyQueen said:
Farage's only benefit to anyone is the fact that he splits the vote of the other parties. I doubt his position on Ukraine is based on one which has Ukraine's interest at heart.
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some of the issues hes raising, Camerons refusal to let Syrian refugees enter Britian which he forced a u turn on, his ripping Clegg to bits on that debate should be of benefit to anyone on the left with the political nous to capitalise on it . The EU is a bastion of neo liberal expansionsism and neo colonialism thats literally killing working class people as well as their futures. All coherent arguments against its activities should be persued . If he can make a coherent point against it and scores a goal that doesnt contradict any left wing positions then it should be amplified , not shouted down . Imho .

The position of im not saying that because that cunt said it first is pretty idiotic I reckon . Especially when hes scoring real hits with it . Like I said, I think perspective is lacking in some peoples arguments.
 
I believe the title of the thread was `Immigration - a socialist viewpoint` when you spouted basic nationalist rhetoric about immigration, were abusive, and sounded quite tired and confused. I see little has changed.

If you want to talk about how much you hate the EU (which by the way is a collection of 28 members states who formulate, vote on and choose policy) please go ahead and start another thread.
 
Coolfonz said:
I believe the title of the thread was `Immigration - a socialist viewpoint` when you spouted basic nationalist rhetoric about immigration, were abusive, and sounded quite tired and confused. I see little has changed.

If you want to talk about how much you hate the EU (which by the way is a collection of 28 members states who formulate, vote on and choose policy) please go ahead and start another thread.
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this thread is about the direct result of a government refusing to accept an EU treaty, EU ultimatums and then being overthrown by an EU supported coup . Plainly your just a fucking troll who doesnt like to see the EU criticised in any way, and whos miffed pretty much every one of the inane posts youve made has been shown up as rubbish and not just by me . Id suggest you just fuck off and stop clogging the thread up with your endless old unsubstantiated shite .
 
Casually Red said:
this thread is about the direct result of a government refusing to accept an EU treaty, EU ultimatums and then being overthrown by an EU supported coup . Plainly your just a fucking troll who doesnt like to see the EU criticised in any way, and whos miffed pretty much every one of the inane posts youve made has been shown up as rubbish and not just by me . Id suggest you just fuck off and stop clogging the thread up with your endless old unsubstantiated shite .
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I think "your" projecting dear chap.
 
Former Bundestag MP condemns EU's acceptance of Svoboda

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/gl...kraines-radical-svoboda-party-shameful-301110

Right-wing extremists from the Svoboda party play a significant role in Ukraine's current interim government. This point was made in numerous publications and articles, including for EurActiv Germany. By signing a historical association agreement with Ukraine, the EU has simply accepted Svoboda as a player in Ukraine's provisional government. But in light of the EU's value system, this move is not only embarrassing but scandalous.

This cannot be justified or explained by the special situation involving illegal integration of Crimea with the Russian Federation or any other of Putin’s policies regarding Ukraine.

The German government, including Christian Democrats (CDU) and the SPD, have squirmed their way out the problematic participation of Svoboda in the interim Ukrainian government without any serious consequences. But they should have taken action before the Ukraine summit, at the very latest, before signing off on any cooperative agreement with this interim government. Anything else diametrically opposes our understanding of democracy.

Precisely when the EU summit is about contributing to political satisfaction and a democratic perspective in Ukraine, the partners involved should be closely considered. It is clear that one cannot hope to fulfill all the standards of a democratic community of values, such as the EU, when dealing with revolutionary conditions.

Amid the turmoil of such a social upheaval, it is to be expected that anti-democratic forces will come into play which should not be tolerated, least of all by the EU, when dealing with aid for political and economic construction. This principle should be consistently represented by all European institutions that intend to promote democratic recovery in Ukraine, politically, financially and economically.

At its summit last week, the EU, and thereby Germany, accepted an interim government as its new partner in Kyiv, a government featuring the radical right-wing Svoboda party as an influential player. This move is shameful, scandalous and politically dangerous.

In a recent op-ed on EurActiv.de, Petra Erler rightly pointed out the European Parliament’s previous warnings regarding Svoboda. In 2012, a far-reaching majority including conservatives and social democrats urgently warned of Svoboda's racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic tendencies.

As a matter of fact, Svoboda maintains close contact with the right-wing extremist National Democratic Party (NPD). A nationalist party for which there is an ‘application to ban’ pending before the German Constitutional Court.

A 2012 study released by the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung also confirms the undeniable right-wing extremist character of Svoboda. How can these facts be simply skated over at a European summit, downplaying Svoboda's role?

As a precondition to signing off on cooperation with an interim Ukrainian government, the EU should have insisted that a party with extremist positions and practices like Svoboda cannot be a cooperation partner. Likewise, it should have been clear that such a party cannot be a included in the construct of a provisional government.

Unfortunately, something so obviously wrong was accepted without consequence in the German government's position at the Brussels summit. This occurrence is shameful.

My party in particular, the SPD, is rightfully proud of its steadfast anti-Nazi tradition and its resistance to new tendencies toward right-wing extremist and nationalist currents or ideology. Through its responsibility in the German government, the SPD must do its tradition and historical credibility justice, when addressing further cooperation between the EU and Ukraine.

Svoboda should not be a cooperation partner of the EU. Even the best EU assistance cannot bring about democracy in Ukraine when anti-democratic forces exist in the government.
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Another interesting article in Foreign Policy magazine

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts...crifice_gay_rights_in_ukraine_for_geopolitics

In an effort to bring Ukraine closer to the West and avoid offending powerful conservative sensibilites in the new government in Kiev, the European Union has told human rights activists that it may backtrack on demands that the country improve legal protections for sexual minorities, which had previously been called a requirement for liberalizing visa rules between Ukraine and the EU.

The fight over LGBT rights comes as European officials are scrambling to come up with a response to Russia's annexation of the Crimean peninsula and has raised the possibility that Brussels may sacrifice demands that Kiev improve its human rights record as part of strengthening ties with Europe.

By liberalizing the visa agreement between Ukraine and the EU, Ukrainian citizens would be allowed to travel freely across member states. EU officials had said that such an agreement would only be implemented if Ukrainian lawmakers passed a tough anti-discrimination law, but the EU now appears to be backing away from that requirement.

On Monday, Ukraine's acting Minister of Justice Pavel Petrenko said that the EU would withdraw the demand and that the union had "found an understanding" with Ukrainian officials. During meetings with civil society leaders and members of the LGBT community earlier this week, officials from the European Commission said that the requirement could be suspended until a later phase of the visa liberalization process, according to activists present in the meetings.
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Particularly interesting since a lot of the PutinisliterallyHitler narrative is reliant on highlighting Russian state homophobia.
 
Seven Decades of Nazi Collaboration: America’s Dirty Little Ukraine Secret

As the Ukrainian crisis has unfolded over the past few weeks, it’s hard for Americans not to see Vladimir Putin as the big villain. But the history of the region is a history of competing villains vying against one another; and one school of villains—the Nazis—have a long history of engagement with the United States, mostly below the radar, but occasionally exposed, as they were by Russ Bellant in his book Old Nazis, the New Right, and the Republican Party (South End Press, 1991). Bellant's exposure of émigré Nazi leaders from Germany's World War II allies in the 1988 Bush presidential campaign was the driving force in the announced resignation of nine individuals, two of them from Ukraine, which is why he was the logical choice to illuminate the scattered mentions of Nazi and fascist elements among the Ukrainian nationalists, which somehow never seems to warrant further comment or explanation. Of course most Ukrainians aren’t Nazis or fascists—all the more reason to illuminate those who would hide their true natures in the shadows…or even behind the momentary glare of the spotlight.
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Old Nazis, the New Right and the Republican Party: Domestic Fascist Networks and U.S. Cold War Politics by Russ Bellant

At the end of World War II, the U.S. government secretly brought many Nazis into the U.S. As detailed in "Quiet Neighbors" and other books examining the U.S. government's program for infiltrating Nazis into the U.S., these Nazis quietly integrated themselves into the American socio-political system. Bellant examines the penetration by Nazis and fascists of the American political system, focusing specifically on how Nazis and fascists have gained influence and leadership positions in the Republican Party. While the book needs to be revised and updated, it is excellent in presenting the underlying foundation of the Reagan and Bush presidencies. Valuable reading for anyone seeking to understand the agenda of the Republican right.
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laptop said:
One word: Wernher von Braun.
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Werner von Braun (and other Nazi scientists) were able to emigrate to the USA under the auspices of operation paperclip in order to work on the rocket programme (and other projects)

The article mentioned above is something slightly different. It goes into depth about US support of eastern European fascist movements after they retreated from Eastern Europe alongside the wehrmacht. After the war, they were resettled in the United States, and over time became integrated into the structure of the Republican Party itself, and have influenced Republican Party policy directly. These are the same groups that marched alongside the SS and are completely unrepentant about their role in the second world war. And all of this relates directly to the current US policy in Ukraine. They support the fascists there now because they have been supporting them since 1945, not just as an outside element but an integrated part of the Republican Party itself.
 
Because uncle joe and the communists were so much better:eek:
The best excuse for stalins murder orgy was it was political rather than racist mass murder:facepalm:
Explains eastern europe get killed by the russians or get killed by the nazis.
The red army didnt liberate anyone they invaded stayed and imposed communisum everywhere apart from austria where they lost an election they never made that mistake again:(
That why the far right does so well its the Ultimate Fuck Off Moscow.
At least being a us puppet mean you got food clothes and rock n roll without queing:thumbs:
 
miss_the_point.jpg
 

At the risk of taking this thread even further off topic, it kind of is his department.

The whole point of V1 and V2 rockets, and their successors, was that they would go up, and then come down more or less where they were aimed.
 
andysays said:
At the risk of taking this thread even further off topic, it kind of is his department.

The whole point of V1 and V2 rockets, and their successors, was that they would go up, and then come down more or less where they were aimed.
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But it was a bit primitive, wasn't it? Weren't they just pointed in a direction and then they flew in a straight line till their fuel ran out....?
 
Sirena said:
But it was a bit primitive, wasn't it? Weren't they just pointed in a direction and then they flew in a straight line till their fuel ran out....?
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The V1, yes.

The V2 carried electronics to integrate the output of an accelerometer, twice, so it could cut off the fuel after flying a measured distance.

I refer you to:

  • Gravity's Rainbow, Thomas Pynchon (nominally fictitious!)
  • Hitler's Rockets, Norman Longmate
  • Target London, Christy Campbell
  • and the semi-official history of the UK equivalent of Operation Paperclip, which I can't be bothered to find on the shelves.
I'm missing a Ukrainan connection, though. Sorry.
 
Sirena said:
But it was a bit primitive, wasn't it? Weren't they just pointed in a direction and then they flew in a straight line till their fuel ran out....?
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Yeah, they were primitive in comparison with what came later, but there was significant calculation involved (so-called "rocket science") to establish how far they would fly with a particular amount of fuel, which meant that they could be targeted rather than just sending them up and letting them come down randomly.
 
Dillinger4 said:
Werner von Braun (and other Nazi scientists) were able to emigrate to the USA under the auspices of operation paperclip in order to work on the rocket programme (and other projects)

The article mentioned above is something slightly different. It goes into depth about US support of eastern European fascist movements after they retreated from Eastern Europe alongside the wehrmacht. After the war, they were resettled in the United States, and over time became integrated into the structure of the Republican Party itself, and have influenced Republican Party policy directly. These are the same groups that marched alongside the SS and are completely unrepentant about their role in the second world war. And all of this relates directly to the current US policy in Ukraine. They support the fascists there now because they have been supporting them since 1945, not just as an outside element but an integrated part of the Republican Party itself.
Click to expand...

And, to fill that out a bit, it's also worth remembering that the support that the US has given to the central and eastern European right post-war has always been a part of their operations to cause a disinformation "strategy of tension" in the Soviet satellites - to make the KGB spend time and effort looking for organised dissent, and to encourage them to waste resources countering nationalist sentiment. They knew that someting as up-front as Gladio wouldn't work everywhere, but both the OSS and Gehlen saw the value in cultivating and keeping links with nationalists "behind the curtain".
 
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