Ukraine

[tbtommyb]

So, where is this army massing in Russia's south west? The defence minister denied there was any build up (obviously) and a crack reporter from the Telegraph failed to find anything. Of course if a random western journalist could stumble upon it it's not hidden very well. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...der-hunt-for-Vladimir-Putins-hidden-army.html)

 

[camouflage]

So, where is this army massing in Russia's south west? The defence minister denied there was any build up (obviously) and a crack reporter from the Telegraph failed to find anything. Of course if a random western journalist could stumble upon it it's not hidden very well. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...der-hunt-for-Vladimir-Putins-hidden-army.html)

I've been wondering about this. Keep reading about this big massive build-up and have been skeptical. No trustworthy or independent sources to confirm yet. Pictures of a few troops carriers parked up somewhere doesn't cut it, you'd need long footage or satellite images to get any real sense of scale surely, not to mention that images taken in other places or other times can easily be labeled-up to fit the assertion. But it's difficult to argue, the Russians would probably try somehow not to make any invasion forces easy for mr random passing independent journalist to spot, and Google Maps isn't exactly real-time.

 

[Casually Red]

Baroness Ashton of chipping sodbury and cucumber sandwiches has issued a statement condemning the neo nazis on the maidan for surrounding the parliament and demanding the resignation of a minister . This behaviour contravenes democratic principles apparently .

http://eeas.europa.eu/statements/docs/2014/140328_04_en.pdf

which begs the question what the fuck was she doing standing hand in hand with the same people and cheering them on when doing the very same thing on the very same spot just a couple of months ago .

 

[Casually Red]

I've been wondering about this. Keep reading about this big massive build-up and have been skeptical. No trustworthy or independent sources to confirm yet. Pictures of a few troops carriers parked up somewhere doesn't cut it, you'd need long footage or satellite images to get any real sense of scale surely, not to mention that images taken in other places or other times can easily be labeled-up to fit the assertion. But it's difficult to argue, the Russians would probably try somehow not to make any invasion forces easy for mr random passing independent journalist to spot, and Google Maps isn't exactly real-time.

the russkis have even invited the Ukrainian military themselves in to have a gander

they were saying the same thing when it was 16000, then 20000..then 100000 troops rolling into Crimea with tanks. When the only Russian tank in Sevastopol was this one .

Its a continuation of the same fakery

 

[Casually Red]

the only way that bloody woman ... pictured here arm in arm with a mob besieging parliament, firebombing police officers, seizing and burning government buildings, and demanding the resignation of a democratically elected president.... can get away with such massive hypocrisy is because she knows the western media are every bit as hypocritical and wont pull her up on it .

First of all the fash were pro democracy protestors, or didnt exist in the first place . Then they were just a fringe of no importance . Which was the media and EU line as long as they were overthrowing a government that refused to usher in mass privatisations and austerity programmes for its ctizens . But the second they take a stand against a self appointed junta thats implementing the EU neo liberal austerity line ,after it apparently summarily executed one of their leaders in the street while handcuffed, theyre a major threat to democracy .

And this is precisely the shit the western media will pump forth from hereonin .

 

[tbtommyb]

I've been wondering about this. Keep reading about this big massive build-up and have been skeptical. No trustworthy or independent sources to confirm yet. Pictures of a few troops carriers parked up somewhere doesn't cut it, you'd need long footage or satellite images to get any real sense of scale surely, not to mention that images taken in other places or other times can easily be labeled-up to fit the assertion. But it's difficult to argue, the Russians would probably try somehow not to make any invasion forces easy for mr random passing independent journalist to spot, and Google Maps isn't exactly real-time.

Another similar article from the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/29/world/europe/russianborder.html?ref=europe

At least now things have progressed to the point where journalists are actually going to Ukraine and Russia and having a look around. In the early days of the crisis it seemed that all the Western reporting was just copying and pasting anything they found on Twitter.

 

[Casually Red]

Its easy to predict what the media line will be .The complete lack of the presence of Russian military build up will be even more evidence of the evil Putin skilfully hiding them .

 

[framed]

the only way that bloody woman ... pictured here arm in arm with a mob besieging parliament, firebombing police officers, seizing and burning government buildings, and demanding the resignation of a democratically elected president.... can get away with such massive hypocrisy is because she knows the western media are every bit as hypocritical and wont pull her up on it .

First of all the fash were pro democracy protestors, or didnt exist in the first place . Then they were just a fringe of no importance . Which was the media and EU line as long as they were overthrowing a government that refused to usher in mass privatisations and austerity programmes for its ctizens . But the second they take a stand against a self appointed junta thats implementing the EU neo liberal austerity line ,after it apparently summarily executed one of their leaders in the street while handcuffed, theyre a major threat to democracy .

And this is precisely the shit the western media will pump forth from hereonin .

Neither of the 'leaders' in the picture (of the Ukraine and the EU) were elected to their current positions, but hey, let's spread 'democracy' eastwards...

 

[Casually Red]

Neither of the 'leaders' in the picture (of the Ukraine and the EU) were elected to their current positions, but hey, let's spread 'democracy' eastwards...

yet for many on the left Farage is the real enemy, while these utter shits demand and ensure the benefits and jobs of many millions of working class people across Spain, Ireland, Greece and Portugal are consigned to the dustbin.

50 percent youth unemployment in Spain, malaria, west Nile virus and Dengue fever killing people in Greece , Aids on the rise , mental health programmes non existant after health and sanitation budgets are eviscerated on their diktats . People in Italy and Greece literally setting fire to themselves outside government buildings out of utter despair .Banksters across Europe bailed out by the poor to the tune of billions and theres fuck all the people can do about it .While theyre openly cheering on neo nazis and coups in eastern europe in their attempts to inflict even more misery on working class people there .

But its a powerless Farage who raises more hackles, while these utter scumbags appearance on the streets of Kiev with an ultimatum for its government barely raises an eyebrow for some on this site who profess lefty righton ness . It proves that old adage about the banality of evil .

cant figure that one out for the life of me. The late Bob Crow had these bastards number but he ploughed a lonely furrow on the left .

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...ics-have-lost-a-valuable-general-in-bob-crow/

 

[Coolfonz]

No surprise to hear you talk like that about Farage after the stuff you wrote about immigration pulling down wages.

Maybe you might like to look at the pre-austerity governments of Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal and their insane economic policies and lies. That was where the EU fucked up, allowing those governments to get away with murder for years.

As for 50pc youth unemployment in Spain, no way. It's outrageously high but it isn't anywhere near 50pc.

And a nazi got executed in Ukraine. Stuff happens...

 

[DairyQueen]

Farage's only benefit to anyone is the fact that he splits the vote of the other parties. I doubt his position on Ukraine is based on one which has Ukraine's interest at heart.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Well tbf I've always said CR was just a Tory born on the wrong side of the Irish Sea, hardly surprising to see him kissing Farage's arse. He is after all on most social issues to the right of the current Tory party.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

that old adage about the banality of evil .

...was intended as much towards Stalin as Hitler by its author, in the post-war text which, for all its merits, became a linchpin for liberals because it also made the mistake of equating bolshevism and nazism *ahem*

As for Farage, he is secondary to the other Tory and capitalist enemies in the UK.

 

[DairyQueen]

I do realise people care less about Ukraine (old news). It looks like things are not going away in the east of the country.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...netsk-russians-and-ukrainians-vie-for-support

 

[goldenecitrone]

Crimea's Tatars have voted for 'ethnic and territorial autonomy. Good luck to them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/29/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-tatars-idUSBREA2S09320140329

 

[Jon-of-arc]

I know it's a bit of an ask, but is anyone able to explain why Russia has annexed Crimea, and why the "west" gives a fuck? Or point to a helpful link.

There seem to be two narratives; the Russian one where Putin moved to protect ethnic Russians in Crimea; and the "western" narrative, where Putin is a some kind of power-crazed loon, threatening international security, for reasons unknown.

I've heard mumblings that Crimea is strategically important (something to do with energy?) to both sides. Is this the case?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Maybe you might like to look at the pre-austerity governments of Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal and their insane economic policies and lies.

Both Ireland and Spain were running surpluses prior to the crisis, and Portugal's deficit was not that different from our own. Greece is a slightly different story, but the idea that the EU has nothing to do with the economic shit that the country now faces is utter bollocks. What is happening in all these countries now is solely down to them being in the single currency, as well as all the 'austerity' measures' (read, Structural Adjustment Programs by another name) being forced upon them as a result.

Sorry to be off-topic, but it had to be said.

 

[classicdish]

...Or point to a helpful link...

Try Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimea_crisis

Crimea is strategically important to Russia because that's where it's Black Sea Fleet is based (which also means access to the Med.)

also:

"Russia opposes Ukrainian integration with the West for various reasons, including a fear of NATO expanding to Russia's Western borders[92] and Russia's claimed desire to include Ukraine in an Eurasian Union.[93]"

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Try Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimea_crisis

Crimea is strategically important to Russia because that's where it's Black Sea Fleet is based (which also means access to the Med.)

also:

"Russia opposes Ukrainian integration with the West for various reasons, including a fear of NATO expanding to Russia's Western borders[92] and Russia's claimed desire to include Ukraine in an Eurasian Union.[93]"

Why does the west care? In terms of violations to Ukraine's sovereignty, they ignore, and perpetuate, acts of geopolitical aggression around the world, when its convenient.

 

[classicdish]

Why does the west care? In terms of violations to Ukraine's sovereignty, they ignore, and perpetuate, acts of geopolitical aggression around the world, when its convenient.

Are you asking 'what are the US and EU strategic and economic interests in Ukraine'?
Or are you asking why *some* people might care about Russia annexing part of Ukraine, potentially invading the rest or otherwise preventing Ukraine from holding elections and/or getting back on a stable political footing and/or deciding for themselves what they want to do?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I know it's a bit of an ask, but is anyone able to explain why Russia has annexed Crimea, and why the "west" gives a fuck? Or point to a helpful link.

There seem to be two narratives; the Russian one where Putin moved to protect ethnic Russians in Crimea; and the "western" narrative, where Putin is a some kind of power-crazed loon, threatening international security, for reasons unknown.

I've heard mumblings that Crimea is strategically important (something to do with energy?) to both sides. Is this the case?

As I said a few weeks ago, part of the military strategic importance to Russia lies in the fact that the Black Sea Fleet is based there, and that a sizeable military port on the Black Sea allows Russia to project its' power beyond the Black Sea and into the Med (meaning that it can access the Atlantic from both the Baltic and Mediterranean). There's also the economic strategic importance to consider - the fact that a large Black Sea port allows Russia access to the Turkish Straits, and thence to both the Med and the Suez Canal, which are handy as far as trade goes (Russia still exports a fair amount of raw materials as opposed to finished goods).

A Ukrainian Crimea (setting aside the arguments about the Crimea being "historically-Russian") meant that Ukraine had humiliatingly-strong economic leverage over Russia in terms of leasing Russia their Black Sea base on the Crimea. Russia, like any other state, doesn't like being embarrassed by weaker states.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why does the west care? In terms of violations to Ukraine's sovereignty, they ignore, and perpetuate, acts of geopolitical aggression around the world, when its convenient.

Realpolitik.

 

[DairyQueen]

The pro-western Ukrainian government does not want any Russian troops there. Not sure it is about leverage.

 

[barney_pig]

The pro-western Ukrainian government does not want any Russian troops there. Not sure it is about leverage.

You are aware that that is the previous now overthrown Ukrainian govt. you are quoting?

 

[DairyQueen]

Yes.

 

[Fuchs66]

You are aware that that is the previous now overthrown Ukrainian govt. you are quoting?

Yes and we all know what happened to Yushchenko when he started daring to say things that Russia didn't like the sound of.

 

[DairyQueen]

Yes and we all know what happened to Yushchenko when he started daring to say things that Russia didn't like the sound of.

Only 2% of Ukrainians voted for him at the next election?

 

[Fuchs66]

Only 2% of Ukrainians voted for him at the next election?

I know, presentation means so much in modern politics.

 

[DairyQueen]

I know, presentation means so much in modern politics.

He was first elected after he was diagnosed with dioxin poisoning. He got 2% of the vote because he was useless, corrupt, and incompetent.

 

[Casually Red]

Why does the west care? In terms of violations to Ukraine's sovereignty, they ignore, and perpetuate, acts of geopolitical aggression around the world, when its convenient.

to be honest not everyone really does care . The Germans dont really seem to give a monkeys despite the obligatory noises, and afterall their own post soviet state was reunified on the same basis as post soviet Crimeas reunification with Russia . East and West Germany were divided even prior to Crimeas ill fated annexation to Ukraine.

And western leaders themselves were blatantly violating Ukrainian sovereignty by playing a major role in the overthrow of its government when it refused to accept their ultimatum , and were pretty blatant about it. Western leaders plainly dont give a stuff about Ukrainian sovereignty . Standing outside a Ukrainian parliament cheering on neo nazis who were petrol bombing , lynching and shooting police officers preventing government buildings from being burned, and handpicking a coup government in waiting certainly isnt respecting sovereignty . Nor is refusing to accept Ukraines sovereign right to reject or defer their EU ultimatums.

Those who care most are in 2 camps. Those who wish to see Russia hobbled and strangled, and those who see Russia itself as the prize . Their concern isnt for Ukrainian sovereignty, their concern is a Russia thats defiant and confounding their scheming . To an extent anyway .

Russian interests in this thing were a stable Ukraine. Western violation of Ukrainian sovereignty may not have acheived all its aims but it did certainly succeed in plunging Ukraine into turmoil and chaos thats likely to last for quite some time. Which is plainly not in Russian interests, having a broken and failed state on its borders incapable of paying its bills, incapable of trade or internal governance and with civil war a real likelihood . And I suspect most western leaders will be happy enough with that for the time being. Its a reasonable enough return on their investment . But its probably best not to sound too happy .

Its also the case that quite a few American politicians are just shills for the defence industry, therefore talking up future conflict and threat is their bread and butter . And on top of that Putin has been running rings round them of late with his insistence international law be upheld . Portraying his actions as a gross violation , regardless of what the overwhelming majority of Crimeans have to say about long awaited reunification with Russia, diminshes his effectiveness on the international sphere for when they plan their next act of aggression against one of their former colonies.