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Dillinger4 said:
Werner von Braun (and other Nazi scientists) were able to emigrate to the USA under the auspices of operation paperclip in order to work on the rocket programme (and other projects)

The article mentioned above is something slightly different. It goes into depth about US support of eastern European fascist movements after they retreated from Eastern Europe alongside the wehrmacht. After the war, they were resettled in the United States, and over time became integrated into the structure of the Republican Party itself, and have influenced Republican Party policy directly. These are the same groups that marched alongside the SS and are completely unrepentant about their role in the second world war. And all of this relates directly to the current US policy in Ukraine. They support the fascists there now because they have been supporting them since 1945, not just as an outside element but an integrated part of the Republican Party itself.
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Britain did exactly the same particularly with the Ukrainian nazis of the Galician Waffen SS who were given refuge and state protection as regards their identities, sheilding them from investigation and prosecution to this day. And has a similar policy to the US . And its clear the Democratic party is just as happy to support nazis as the Republicans .

but good finds , very informative and relevant
 
Casually Red said:
Britain did exactly the same particularly with the Ukrainian nazis of the Galician Waffen SS who were given refuge and state protection as regards their identities, sheilding them from investigation and prosecution to this day. And has a similar policy to the US . And its clear the Democratic party is just as happy to support nazis as the Republicans .

but good finds , very informative and relevant
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Oh aye the approach towards war criminals was and remains shit but at least at no point were they considering working directly together with the Nazis.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Oh aye the approach towards war criminals was and remains shit but at least at no point were they considering working directly together with the Nazis.
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I think youll find they did just that in 1944 when they rearmed them in Greece and then set about massacring the partisans whod just defeated them. And a lot more besides, having played a major role in financing and creating their capacity to wage war in the first place.

And the historic and ongoing secrecy around the 9000 Ukrainian SS members on the Rimini list isnt just shit. Its a policy, and a policy which regarded those nazis as useful to British and by extension NATOs interests. And therefore protecting them was in British interests.
 
Casually Red said:
I think youll find they did just that in 1944 when they rearmed them in Greece and then set about massacring the partisans whod just defeated them. And a lot more besides, having played a major role in financing and creating their capacity to wage war in the first place.

And the historic and ongoing secrecy around the 9000 Ukrainian SS members on the Rimini list isnt just shit. Its a policy, and a policy which regarded those nazis as useful to British and by extension NATOs interests. And therefore protecting them was in British interests.
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Still didn't collaborate with the German Nazis though.

As far as Greece was concerned I guess it was seen at that time as the best choice between 2 extremes don't know enough about the details to comment with confidence though.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Still didn't collaborate with the German Nazis though.

As far as Greece was concerned I guess it was seen at that time as the best choice between 2 extremes don't know enough about the details to comment with confidence though.
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ok, so when faced with a choice between 2 extremes its ok for brits but not micks with half their country occupied by one of them . I see were your coming from now. British exceptionalism . And your admitting you dont know anything about greece but are insisting there wasnt any collaboration there regardless

They prefferred nazis over communists in Greece and shot their own allies in the back while war was still raging

Yes they did collaborate with them. When they required loans and finance from Britain it was provided in a quite massive way. When they required everything from steel to nickel, to munitions to armoured cars for their war machine it was provided to them by Britain. Along with lines of credit.
There was also over 23 tonnes of Czech gold sitting in London bank vaults handed to them by Britain in 1938, looted by the nazis with direct British collaboration. And direct British facilitation in selling gold on European markets and laundering the proceeds right into 1939.
And thats before we get into the active collaboration and blind eyes turned to Nazi Germanys direct assistance to the fascist coup in Spain during the 30s, when Britain assisted Hitler and Mussolini to strangle Spanish democracy.
Accepting Wehrmacht technological knowhow in sabotage and explosives pales into pretty minor significance when compared to that lot .
 
likesfish said:
Because uncle joe and the communists were so much better:eek:
The best excuse for stalins murder orgy was it was political rather than racist mass murder:facepalm:
Explains eastern europe get killed by the russians or get killed by the nazis.
The red army didnt liberate anyone they invaded stayed and imposed communisum everywhere apart from austria where they lost an election they never made that mistake again:(
That why the far right does so well its the Ultimate Fuck Off Moscow.
At least being a us puppet mean you got food clothes and rock n roll without queing:thumbs:
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wut.
 
frogwoman said:
Hang on CR has been a dick on this thread but I don't see what's wrong with pointing out the UK's less than glorious past when it comes to helping the fash
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When we help the fash it is cold, hard realpolitik. As Fuchs pointed out, it was either with the Greek fash or the Greek communists. According to Fuchs, they are just two extremes but he doesn't know an awful lot about it (but might as well contribute that anyway).

<SARCASM>When you think about, wishing for the community ownership of the means of the production is more or less the same as scapegoating some minority. They are definitely two extremes anyway.</SARCASM>
 
DairyQueen said:
<SARCASM>When you think about, wishing for the community ownership of the means of the production is more or less the same as scapegoating some minority. They are definitely two extremes anyway.</SARCASM>
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Except it wasnt that it was it? follow MOSCOWS ORDERS or WASHINGTONS the cold war rather runed the chance for alternatives facisism shiny uniforms torture and MI6s
Communisim not so shiny uniforms torture and an AK47.
 
frogwoman said:
Hang on CR has been a dick on this thread but I don't see what's wrong with pointing out the UK's less than glorious past when it comes to helping the fash
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Sorry wasn't so clear on my last comment, I blame the wine, but his main argument against the Ukrainian interim government is the presence of radical right wing groups and yet he unquestioningly supports the past cooperation with THE Nazi regime by groups that he is more sympathetic with. Maybe my comment should have been "Ha, hypocritical wanker"!
I think any support of nazi/fascist/far-right governments by the British government or anyone in the past or now should be criticised.
 
laptop said:
The V1, yes.
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Unless it had some poor bastard strapped into it as a human guidance system as in the Fi-103 Reichenberg iteration of the V1 project...

fi-103.jpg


Definitely falls into the "You want me to do what?!" category of Luftwaffe projects along with the Ba-349 Natter.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Go back and read what I said you disingenuous twat!
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I know exactly what you wrote. If you did not know enough about the Greek civil war, but you felt you knew enough to say that the reds and fash were more or less the same. Maybe you just wanted to draw that comparison with no supporting information (like the Russians are infiltrating urban claim). What you are doing is making dubious claims that are based on your prejudice, and dressing it up as legitimate debate.
 
likesfish said:
Except it wasnt that it was it? follow MOSCOWS ORDERS or WASHINGTONS the cold war rather runed the chance for alternatives facisism shiny uniforms torture and MI6s
Communisim not so shiny uniforms torture and an AK47.
Click to expand...

No, I don't accept this. First of all, in this context Yugoslavia actually supported the Greek communists. Ignoring that, foreign support often has nothing to do with the types of groups that were created in the first place and the stratification of society that caused these groups to form. So, the Cuban revolution was just a Moscow-backed coup? Revolts across the old European empires were just Russians causing trouble?

To say that communist/fash factions are just two extremes is fatuous and designed to equate them both together. It makes western voting of right-wing parties (like the Tories, Lib Dems, Labour) easier to justify as it is much easier to condemn genuine alternatives (who may or may not have been supported by Moscow btw). This is despite the fact the two sides have fundamental differences that would be expected. In fact this myth was (and still is) so prevalent just being accused of having Moscow's support or being a communist was/is enough to condemn people.

People who claim the radical left and radical right are the same are just those who find it hard to find moral justifications for their own dubious beliefs (well, it is better than "extremes").
 
They may have loadsof POLITICAL DIFFRENCES.:rolleyes:

but reality political prisoners check, secret police check,shite economys check,nice posters and slogans check.
But not fucking it up for ordinary people no they cant do that.
Moscows regime what ever the fuck it was was either incompetant or evil or possibly both. :(

So communism is so much better than facism why?
Moscow flavour its a one party state no dissent or democracy in any way shape or form the party controls everything and thats diffrent from the nazi party how exactly?
The only practical diffrence is the nazis had a genocidal fixation with the jews communisits had a more political approach to mass murder.

An alternative that relies on violence to cease power and more violence to remain in power and response to any dissent is violent repression
Torys maybe shit but they dont jail poets and jazz musicaians
Nazis kill them
Communists send them to the camps:(


Take your alternatives and shove it.
 
You have a point. Thankfully I have never come across anyone in real life who has used such a definition, and as for me I'm working on it. However, I feel likesfish needs to try a bit harder. I don't think he's daft, by the way, just ignorant.
 
DairyQueen said:
I know exactly what you wrote. If you did not know enough about the Greek civil war, but you felt you knew enough to say that the reds and fash were more or less the same. Maybe you just wanted to draw that comparison with no supporting information (like the Russians are infiltrating urban claim). What you are doing is making dubious claims that are based on your prejudice, and dressing it up as legitimate debate.
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I see you still haven't understood. Try reading again I guess it takes a couple of attempts with you.

I never said anything about the Greek left or right I merely stated my "guess" as to why the UK reacted as it did. I never gave a value judgement on the Greeks of whatever political leaning (as you seem to have latched onto) I am not informed enough to make an educated comment.
I realise that ignorance doesn't stop some making comments here but I try to avoid that that if possible.
 
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The greek communists dropped titos yugoslavia on moscows orders even though they were based in yugoslavia and got their supplys via tito hence end of greek civil war :facepalm:

Both sides behaved like cunts at various times and places with stalin stirring and the walking away
 
Casually Red said:
There was also over 23 tonnes of Czech gold sitting in London bank vaults handed to them by Britain in 1938, looted by the nazis with direct British collaboration.
Click to expand...

Just a teensy little point of order with regard to the above: There was no "direct British collaboration" in the sense of state collaboration over Czech state bullion deposits. The Bank of England (where the gold was deposited, according to Bower and a metric fucktonne of other researchers, rather than "London bank vaults") is a private institution that remitted the gold bullion to the rulers of Czechoslovakia. Blame Montagu Norman for not being sufficiently anti-fascist.
 
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