Ukraine

[butchersapron]

Who must be obeyed?

E2A: Ah I get it, you are critiquing my implication that Putin is acting alone rather than riding a complex tiger made up of competing factions within the oligarchy, and the need to manage the Russian masses.

That just makes it harder to see him as Flash! He'll save everyone us! Flash!

I believe he is the better choice not just because the west are a shower of arseholes. As has been pointed out to you he stopped another disastrous war against Syria. Syria in turn supports the resistance against zionism. He supports other progressive nations in Latin America by both military, technological and trade means. He was furious at how a UN resolution was perverted to overthrow sovereign Libya, and was a lone voice in Eueope taking a stand against it . He prevents the UN security council rubber stamping all sorts of crazy American inspired stuff. He acts as the voice on that security council for the vast majority of nations in the world who oppose what the west does but despite them being the majority the wishes of the general assembly are routinely ignored by the western powers. He gives them a voice and a say. Which the racist bastard western media calls Russia holding the world to ransom. When the only world they are referring to is the white western world.

He protected Snowden when the western powers were forcing presidnetial aircraft out of the skies. And as I also pointed out hes just turned the entire western discourse on their exceptionalism and Blairs Chicago doctrine right over. Right in the middle of McCain and a few others simultaneously agitating for military intervention in Venezuela to protect civilians while overseeing a successful coup in Ukraine.
Ive pointed all of this out regularly, its far from simplistic and certainly not as simplistic as that utter rubbish youve just stated is my case . Which is a lot more insulting than wee man frankly

This above filth - he he he. It's like some hideous cult.

 

[Idris2002]

PUTINS ALIVE!

Genuine LOL, very good.

 

[tim]

I believe he is the better choice not just because the west are a shower of arseholes. As has been pointed out to you he stopped another disastrous war against Syria. Syria in turn supports the resistance against zionism. .

The Assad regime and the Israelis have coexisted very happily for a long time. Beneath the necessary rhetoric there's always been a great deal of common interest.

 

[Casually Red]

Actually, I share a lot of your scepticism regarding the 'civilising mission' of the western imperialists. I simply can't follow you down the rabbit hole of believing that Putin must be a people's champion because he opposes Downing Street, the Elysee palace and the white house (and not forgetting the Bundestag).

As for the fascists achieving their medium term goals, don't forget that in Italy in 1923 and Germany ten years later they were handed fully functioning, more or less modern states on a platter. Present-day Ukraine is a far more dysfunctional entity (as you point out) and they will find that this will limit their capacity to crank up the gas chambers and get the cremos working again. That doesn't mean we should pretend they don't exist like the liberals do, but we shouldn't act like they're a bigger threat than they are.

I'm not saying there's nothing to worry about, I'm saying let's keep a clear head and wait and see.

Its not about him being a peoples champion. Im just glad theres actually a power there actually physically stopping a lot of disastrous stuff from actually happening. The west portray him as a threat to the world, I see him as preventing threats to the world, or at least trying to and succeeding in some cases, failing in others like Libya . The disaster for not just Libya but Africa itself doesnt need elucidating. Syria would have been a holocaust.

Im not arguing the fascists will bring back gas chambers. Im arguing that theyll engage in mass suppression of and terrorisation of the Ukrainian population. Because theyre making clear thats what theyll do.

 

[Casually Red]

The Assad regime and the Israelis have coexisted very happily for a long time. Beneath the necessary rhetoric there's always been a great deal of common interest.

the israelis just bombed syria again the other day

 

[Idris2002]

Its not about him being a peoples champion. Im just glad theres actually a power there actually physically stopping a lot of disastrous stuff from actually happening. The west portray him as a threat to the world, I see him as preventing threats to the world, or at least trying to and succeeding in some cases, failing in others like Libya . The disaster for not just Libya but Africa itself doesnt need elucidating. Syria would have been a holocaust.

Im not arguing the fascists will bring back gas chambers. Im arguing that theyll engage in mass suppression of and terrorisation of the Ukrainian population. Because theyre making clear thats what theyll do.

They're making it clear that that's what they WANT to do, but we have to see how the situation develops. And neither Putin nor the Russian state as a whole is a power standing between the world and disaster, they're participants in that global slide to disaster. . .

 

[Casually Red]

They're making it clear that that's what they WANT to do, but we have to see how the situation develops. And neither Putin nor the Russian state as a whole is a power standing between the world and disaster, they're participants in that global slide to disaster. . .

theyre making it clear what they want to do while being handed the physical and legislative means to do it by people who need them to do it in a scenario were mass protest and disagreement are perfectly forseeable. Its like waiting to see how Barcelona do against Crewe

 

[Casually Red]

well, looks like the russians have just helped themselves to Ukraines only submarine, russian flag just been planted on it . Id assume the rest of their fleet has gone the same way .
Just saw what looked to be Ukrainian troops shaking hands with some Russians . Many of them will be staying and joining the Russian army by the sounds of things .
There was footage there of the 2 men who were killed the other night, the Crimean militiaman and the Ukrainian soldier who were shot by persons unkown . Both of the coffins draped in their respective flags being waked together in the same room .

 

[butchersapron]

Many of them will be staying and joining the Russian army by the sounds of things .

by the sound of things. This is disgusting. Why are you letting him do it co-op? Why didn't you try stop him before? This is the only person offering a coherent analysis, one miles ahead of others remember.

 

[TomUS]

if this is how its playing out it looks like the fash can kiss goodbye to their naval assets as well, worth billions more.

Not content with mere military conquest of territory, Putin has ordered his goons to steal Ukraine's ships now.

 

[SpineyNorman]

if I was a general in the Iraqi army during the second gulf war, the coalition would have either suffered heavy losses or would have taken much longer to overthrow the Saddam.

Your posts on this thread just get better every time.

 

[Casually Red]

Not content with mere military conquest of territory, Putin has ordered his goons to steal Ukraine's ships now.

well he might be stealing their troops too . Theyve been offered 3 choices, to stay on in the same ranks within the Russian military,to take Russian passports and stay on in Crimea as civilians or to leave with safe passage . According to the Russians thus far only 2000 have opted to leave . Theyre also saying the Ukrainian border guards sealed the border and prevented anyone from leaving Crimea just as that deadline to handover was expiring, which could well have been an attempt to spare Kievs blushes .It certainly fits in with their seeming abandonment of their own troops with no orders or idea what to do.

http://rt.com/news/ukrainian-soldiers-leave-crimea-577/

 

[DairyQueen]

Its not about him being a peoples champion. Im just glad theres actually a power there actually physically stopping a lot of disastrous stuff from actually happening. The west portray him as a threat to the world, I see him as preventing threats to the world, or at least trying to and succeeding in some cases, failing in others like Libya . The disaster for not just Libya but Africa itself doesnt need elucidating. Syria would have been a holocaust.

Im not arguing the fascists will bring back gas chambers. Im arguing that theyll engage in mass suppression of and terrorisation of the Ukrainian population. Because theyre making clear thats what theyll do.

Are you just arguing that it is better to have a bipolar world than a unipolar one? Regardless of political stripe, there should be some counterbalance to NATO to keep them in check?

 

[Casually Red]

well it would be better if NATO and the US had no power and it would be better if the force that opposed them was more ideologically sound . But yes, essentially thats what im arguing. A multipolar world stands a far better chance of keeping US and NATO aggression in check. Therefore makes it harder for them to simply destroy anywhere they want. Those things they want to destroy tend to be progressive on a number of levels.

These things are a reality, this is happening. This isnt empty theory. All the fancy lefty and anarchist theories in the world arent even remotely keeping western aggression in check. Pan Africanism and African development has simply been annihilated. Pan Arabism was going the same route. Bolivarianism is also targetted for destruction.
Its my belief a halt has been put to that process. That for all the wests bluster about isolation the reality is theyllhave to engage and reset their future approach from now on in a multipolar world. With Blairs Chicago doctrine consigned to history.
My view may be optimistic but thats what Im hoping for.
Some others seem to be hoping for yet another miraculous spring were just maybe the flag will be the right colour. Dreamers.

eta

sorry, wankers

 

[8ball]

..according to the Russians thus far only 2000 have opted to leave . Theyre also saying the Ukrainian border guards sealed the border and prevented anyone from leaving Crimea just as that deadline to handover was expiring, which could well have been an attempt to spare Kievs blushes .It certainly fits in with their seeming abandonment of their own troops with no orders or idea what to do.

I can't figure out why they did that (the abandoning their own troops bit).

 

[Casually Red]

I can't figure out why they did that (the abandoning their own troops bit).

its possible theyre aware many of their own troops might have disobeyed orders. There were plenty of senior defections reported from the very beginning. It might have been very embarassing to order them to withdraw only to find a lot of them fancied staying in a relatively prosperous country compared to a bankrupt entity determined to go even more bankrupt facing all sorts of chaos and IMF austerity.
Or preferred joining an army that actually paid their wages.

 

[J Ed]

Looks like the start of some serious repression of a protest of a million people in Madrid here http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/03/21/videos/1395419327_868553.html?autoplay=1 - I wonder if Kerry, Hague and Rompuy are going to call on Rajoy to restrain himself?

 

[8ball]

its possible theyre aware many of their own troops might have disobeyed orders. There were plenty of senior defections reported from the very beginning. It might have been very embarassing to order them to withdraw only to find a lot of them fancied staying in a relatively prosperous country compared to a bankrupt entity determined to go even more bankrupt facing all sorts of chaos and IMF austerity.
Or preferred joining an army that actually paid their wages.

I don't know how secure military orders are but I would have thought they could have still made it clear that no one was expected to die defending an obviously lost cause.

 

[Casually Red]

I don't know how secure military orders are but I would have thought they could have still made it clear that no one was expected to die defending an obviously lost cause.

personally i think theyd have been very happy to have a few of them die . And that episode were a squad of them marched up to pro Russian lines armed with little more than an old Red star soviet flag to deflect bullets while bizarrely chanting America is with us is an example of what Kiev hoped for. Some noble patriots cruelly cut down while doing their duty . Thankfully the russians were keen to avoid martyring anyone .
While the Russians are emphasisng the unanimously voted for , orderly, largely bloodless and peaceful transfer of Crimea in contrast to the violent nature of the Ukrainian governments overthrow and the chaos accompanying it, a few dead martyrs goes a long way to shoring up ones own legitimacy versus the illegitmacy of Crimeas secession .
We need to remember here Yanukovich had to be removed by force because his opponents couldnt manage it electorally . Within Ukraine the legitimacy of that action is still deeply and bitterly contested . Putin himself has been very personally popular in Ukraine from long before this all started . Kiev still face an uphill battle for internal legitimacy and the deep unpopularity of the policies they intend implementing . They desperately need dead bodies for all that .
Orders that would have led to that may well have resulted in much wider mutiny . And the orders to take action that would avoid it..thats is pull out..werent given either . Instead they just abandoned them to their fate to see what would happen . I believe the hope was in that in such confusion its likely someone would die and a propaganda victory could be secured among their own people .

 

[J Ed]

.

 

[sunny jim]

This fascist coup isn't a done deal at all. Here are the Right Sector turning up in Donetsk and getting their arses kicked by locals - the nazis dont control Donetsk thats for sure. They were only saved from a more serious beating through protection from the cops although some of them had 'a full and frank discussion with the pavement'

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

Edit: Hopefully there will be a massive anti fascist backlash against the nazi scumfucks and at the very least eastern Ukraine will be fascist free - maybe even Kiev might be liberated too.

 

[Casually Red]

heres some well interesting stuff as regards the Gladio type aspect of this coup . The yanks have pumped something like 5 billion into the groups involved in overthrowing the state but this looks like it could be a bit more than just money thats been on offer . What it seems to be is a paramilitary training camp for the Ukrainian fash in Estonia some years back, were the fash were learning all sorts of nasty stuff including home made explosives, firearms, rockets, IEDs, booby traps . The whole insurgent panoply pretty much . Its claimed that this camp was sponsored by NATO . Im not entirely sure of the providence of that but US and British flags seem to be very prominent for some reason, no idea why . And the weapons they are training with are definitely brand new, pretty spotless and NATO issue along with the equally spotless ammo boxes. Theres climbing towers there too . This definitely isnt some backyard Combat 18 affair .Looks very much the real deal .

http://varjag-2007.livejournal.com/5599918.html

theres a couple of videos of their lectures linked to there . Would be interested in knowing what the lecturer was saying to his nazi students being instructed in the art of killing lots of people.

 

[butchersapron]

i'm not entirely sure of the providence

- the word is provenance. And you better be sure before posting it as ) fact and b) proof of associated facts. Given that your post says that you have no idea what your link says or what the link in the video says, then...you know..

 

[butchersapron]

What does this say CR:

Вглядитесь в лица, может и опознаете кого из сегодняшних "активистов" майдана...

 

[Casually Red]

This fascist coup isn't a done deal at all. Here are the Right Sector turning up in Donetsk and getting their arses kicked by locals - the nazis dont control Donetsk thats for sure. They were only saved from a more serious beating through protection from the cops although some of them had 'a full and frank discussion with the pavement'

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

Edit: Hopefully there will be a massive anti fascist backlash against the nazi scumfucks and at the very least eastern Ukraine will be fascist free - maybe even Kiev might be liberated too.

theres nothing wrong with optimism, but id certainly take the opinion despite their bluster these guys in Kiev are in a shaky position . Their treatment of that TV cheif seems to have sparked protests in Kiev and recriminations among themselves.

http://rt.com/news/svoboda-rt-violence-copyright-345/

 

[sunny jim]

What does this say CR:

It translates as "Look at the person who can and will recognize from today's "activists" Maidan ." (through Google translate)

 

[elbows]

He was furious at how a UN resolution was perverted to overthrow sovereign Libya, and was a lone voice in Eueope taking a stand against it .

Complaints about the NATO campaign by Putin do not disguise the fact that Russia did not veto the Libya stuff at the UN. And it would be laughable to suggest that Russia was surprised at what form the action ended up taking. They know very well, for example, that a no-fly zone means a 'we bomb zone'.

Like many other nations they had economic ties to Gaddafi, reasons to wish he remained in power existed for Russia. But they also failed to give his regime their unconditional support, Gaddafi apparently wasn't worth their veto at the UN. There was a lot of ambivalence in their stance, and the angry words of Putin were little more than the sorts of 'pious noises off' the west makes when having no real intention of seriously thwarting Russian actions.

 

[tim]

the israelis just bombed syria again the other day

Traditional tit-for-tat stuff. You've always got to keep up the appearance of enmity.

 

[Casually Red]

im sorry dear fellow but your just divining now . thats just your own opinion .

 

[goldenecitrone]

Traditional tit-for-tat stuff. You've always got to keep up the appearance of enmity.

I'm surprised they could find anything left to bomb. Assad's mob have already reduced most of Syria to rubble.