Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
fair enough, you dont appear to be even slightly wound up by me. Or my influence.
Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
not wound up
eta
just shaken, not stirred
eta
just shaken, not stirred
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Do yourself and this thread a favour and put the clown on ignore.
Too much time being taken up with tit for tat bullshit.
This was a must read urban thread at one point, but the quality has been dropping for a while now, let's try and keep it on topic please from now on because it would be too much of a shame to lose this thread to petty squabbling.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Point taken I'll avoid reacting to his crap in the future, although I won't put him on ignore, never done that and probably never will.
Point taken I'll avoid reacting to his crap in the future, although I won't put him on ignore, never done that and probably never will.
I know it's hard man because god knows i've shit on a few threads myself trying to engage with him, but it's for the best.
At least Crimea had a referendum which is more than what Kosovo had when it unilaterally declared independence which was against the UN Charter and illegal under international law . The UK , USA governments and others are hypocritical, hard faced liars when they criticise Putin and Crimea, but support what Kosovo did.
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Two wrongs certainly don't make a right but, what we're seeing here is Putin playing the west at it's own game - and winning.
It's way too late in the day to talk about Putin's moves on the Crimea in any context of international law and the international relations framework. The West's behaviour over past 2 decades has set the piss-taking bar to new heights in that department.
Of course, although it's a referendum where the result is a forgone conclusion (do you think Russia would've abandoned it's naval base at Sevastapol if the results had gone the other way? Of course not...) but yeah it's more than the Kiev government managed by way of consent that's for sure.
All states are hypocritical hard-faced liars. How can we attack Putin for blatantly ignoring international law and annexing a country when we are more than willing to do the same thing when it suits. This isn't just a UK and USA phenomenon every power system, every state, follows this sort of logic.
It's a weird one, and J Ed made a reference to it, that the Marxist school and the far-right Realpolitick school of IR actually do share some similarities when it comes to understanding International Law, which is why you'll often find more honest and rational analysis coming from the neo-con Foreign Affairs lot than the pathetic Guardian/Salon/Indy liberal press.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
True. And with a minimum of bloodshed so far. Let's just hope Putin is satisfied with what he's got.
Winning? Are you sure about that? So far he's seen Syria, his strongest ally in the middle-east, reduced to rubble, and Ukraine, a crucial part of Russia's sphere, lost to the EU. If that's what winning looks like I'd hate to see what losing was.
This isn't a "win" from Russia, it's slightly more different. 20 years ago if the USA wanted to expand it could do so unhindered - it could've removed Assad and taken Ukraine and Russia was in no position to do anything. What's different now is the USA is declining slightly and Russia has restored some of it's previous muscle, so whereas they would once have accepted all this without being able to do anything to stop it, today they can actually exert some degree of resistance. So Syria, although it is now rubble, they managed to keep Assad in power - a consolation but one they would not have got 15 years ago. And in Ukraine, they lost Ukraine but were able to take Crimea, which is a marked improvement over the days when the USA was totally hegemonic and could do as it pleased with no resistance of any kind from Moscow.
It's not a win for Russia, but you can see signs of long-term US decline and Russia re-taking it's seat back at the very top table as a counter-balance to the USA. And of course that's without getting into the whole issue of the rise of China, India, Brazil and other countries with big potential geo-politically.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
anyways leaving fuchs overstrenuous protestations aside, heres some interesting background on that Liz Wahl on air resignation from RT that the mainstream media and quite a few on here where cheering on as a brave minded act of principle.
At the time I was being slated for pointing out there was nothing to do with either virtue or principle in her stunt . And that her stated reason was nothing more than right wing yank jingoism.
Her cheerleaders were having none of it and praising her to the heavens for standing up to tyranny and censorship. But lo and behold it turns out now she was up to her armpits all along with the neo con thinktank Foreign Policy Initiative. Itself basically a rebrand of the infamous Project for a New American Century, founded by a number of the same figures who are so deeply implicated in the destruction of Iraq.
And it seems there was basically a countdown to her resignation on their twitter feed beforehand. And that within barely an hour of that resignation neo con attention seeker James Kirchik from the FPI had already gotten his interview with her about her resignation published.
And its well interesting how enmeshed this business is. Head honcho at the FPI is Robert Kagan. Hes the husband of none other than Fuck the EU plotter Barbara Nuland whos was hand selecting the coup leadership during the overthrow of the Ukrainian government. And hes also very close to John McCain, having previously managed his election campaigns.
Kirchik himself was being cheered on by a few on here when he himself pulled an identical stunt and stormed off an on air RT interview during the Sochi boycott campaign that he and his ilk were heavily promoting as a means to isolate and demonise Russia all over the media. Again that was fuck all to do with principle either but plenty of useful idiots fell for it nontheless.
It seems Kirchik had been in regular contact with Wahl ever since, who at that time was angry at having been disciplined and demoted. And lo and behold she pulled a stunt that was identical to his own stunt.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item..._stage_managed_liz_wahls_resignation_20140319
http://rt.com/usa/neocons-stage-attack-alternative-media-965/
somehow doubt given their atrocious track record to date the mainstream media will be keeping their readership up to speed on the pretty rotten background thats emerged of their much vaunted heroine for free speech Liz Wahl.
At the time I was being slated for pointing out there was nothing to do with either virtue or principle in her stunt . And that her stated reason was nothing more than right wing yank jingoism.
Her cheerleaders were having none of it and praising her to the heavens for standing up to tyranny and censorship. But lo and behold it turns out now she was up to her armpits all along with the neo con thinktank Foreign Policy Initiative. Itself basically a rebrand of the infamous Project for a New American Century, founded by a number of the same figures who are so deeply implicated in the destruction of Iraq.
And it seems there was basically a countdown to her resignation on their twitter feed beforehand. And that within barely an hour of that resignation neo con attention seeker James Kirchik from the FPI had already gotten his interview with her about her resignation published.
And its well interesting how enmeshed this business is. Head honcho at the FPI is Robert Kagan. Hes the husband of none other than Fuck the EU plotter Barbara Nuland whos was hand selecting the coup leadership during the overthrow of the Ukrainian government. And hes also very close to John McCain, having previously managed his election campaigns.
Kirchik himself was being cheered on by a few on here when he himself pulled an identical stunt and stormed off an on air RT interview during the Sochi boycott campaign that he and his ilk were heavily promoting as a means to isolate and demonise Russia all over the media. Again that was fuck all to do with principle either but plenty of useful idiots fell for it nontheless.
It seems Kirchik had been in regular contact with Wahl ever since, who at that time was angry at having been disciplined and demoted. And lo and behold she pulled a stunt that was identical to his own stunt.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item..._stage_managed_liz_wahls_resignation_20140319
http://rt.com/usa/neocons-stage-attack-alternative-media-965/
somehow doubt given their atrocious track record to date the mainstream media will be keeping their readership up to speed on the pretty rotten background thats emerged of their much vaunted heroine for free speech Liz Wahl.
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pocketscience
Well-Known Member
I was referring purely to the Ukraine situation. Syria's another thread.
As for "they lost Ukraine", I'm not so sure that's a bad thing for him. Being the debtee to that nation, it could be argued that he's now conveniently offloaded the debtor to a flush underwriter.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
and at least Russia didnt bomb the shit out of Ukraine for 90 days running killing thousands of civilians in order to secure it. Putin, who has a Phd in International Law, has been stating for years now that Kosovo was a double edged sword and that one day it would badly cut the west. Ive been heavily slated by a few on here for pointing that out.
But its bloody true.
I totally disagree it's a huge loss. That's new "customs union" Putin wants to set up is now basically Russia with a load of central asian dictators, that's why the EU pushed so hard to back the rebellion because they wanted to bring the Ukraine into the EU asap before it was part of that customs union.
Don't worry about the debt of the Ukraine I suspect that hardly even figures into it. the EU doesn't care if Ukraine is paralysed with austerity to pay the IMF, as long as it's in their sphere it'll be worth every penny.
It would have been politically (domestically) very damaging, some would argue suicidal, if Putin had not responded to Crimea in the way he has done.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
looks like its a Russian airbase now.
andysays
Love and solidarity
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
We'll see in the long term how that pans out
While included debt laden countries are crippling the Eu, you really think the Ukraine's worth every penny? What do you think are the economic advantages are?
Apparently waiting for orders at Belbek Air Base (from Kiev); but not receiving any: Russians not prepared to wait anymore. Luckily very few causalities, it seems.
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
The fascists have just lost dozens of pretty expensive mig fighters and other fancy kit there. They certainly dont have the dosh to replace that.
the lack of tactical awareness of these Ukrainians is baffling. Just recognise you have lost Crimea. Withdraw and concentrate on defending the rest of mother Ukraine against mother Russia.
It reminds me of the stupid tactics of Saddam Hussein-if I was a general in the Iraqi army during the second gulf war, the coalition would have either suffered heavy losses or would have taken much longer to overthrow the Saddam.
It reminds me of the stupid tactics of Saddam Hussein-if I was a general in the Iraqi army during the second gulf war, the coalition would have either suffered heavy losses or would have taken much longer to overthrow the Saddam.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Or your troops would have killed you as they desert and mutiny. Child.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
they certainly dont care about them. It could well be the supposed assault was pre arranged to spare officers blushes. From the report on sky it appears the scale and quality of the equipment lost to Kiev is pretty catastrophic. No officer wants to go back and report to a bunch of nazis he just handed that lot over. Its worth billions.
The Ukrainian officer claims he told his men to fire in the air. Russians were firing in the air. Could well just be an arranged hand over with some theatrics.
But that looks like another fait accompli. All your bases are belong to us.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
He said, violently wanking into a crusty old sock.
due to poor training. as a 11 year old how i laughed at videos of the "elite" republican guards "training" which involved crawling under wire while a comrade sprayed blank bullets into the sand.
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