Ukraine

[sunny jim]

The referendum was a dirty trick. There was no option of voting to stay part of Ukraine. I'm sure that if an honest referendum had been held the vote would have been to leave Ukraine. But they still cheated.

The two questions were to join Russia or stay within the borders of Ukraine as they were set out in 1992.

 

[Casually Red]

Yes. It was not exactly an undercover op. If Putin has been trying to play the Ukraine game internally, he has done so pretty badly; his boy got run out of town on a rail and Putin ended up having to use the army in plain view of the world to get what he probably thinks is a bare minimum of what Russia ought to get.

Even the pro Kremlin media in Russia were pretty scathing of Yanukovich. Putin himself regarded him as not just corrupt and incompetent but pathetically weak and indecisive. What the hell was he doing permitting entry to foreign politicians like McCain, Ashton and others who were openly cheering on violent riots and organising a government overthrow ? Making no secret of it all. He never even protested about this, Putin had to protest about it instead while Yanukovich doffed his cap and tried to curry favour by not criticising the powerful much ess challenging them . If Putin had been controlling him then that simply wouldnt have been allowed happen, theyd have been escorted to the airport and officially told to fuck off. Instead Putin made reference to Ukraine permitting itself to be used as a doormat and just despaired at Yanukovichs lack of leadership and direction.

In the past few days a lot of these same high ranking politicians and officials have been banned from ever entering Russian territory. Which now includes Crimea.

 

[Casually Red]

So why no debate in the Crimean legislature about the referendum?

because they pretty much unanimously agreed, there was nothing to debate . A debate needs 2 opposing arguments . But there werent any .

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

because they pretty much unanimously agreed, there was nothing to debate . A debate needs 2 opposing arguments . But there werent any .

Probably because the Tatar member of the Supreme Council was banned from participating.

 

[Casually Red]

So your saying one guy disagreed

and how could he be banned from participating in a debate that never happened ?

 

[sunny jim]

Probably because the Tatar member of the Supreme Council was banned from participating.

I cant imagine the Tatars being welcomed into a Ukraine that was run by neo nazis, proclaiming 'Ukraine for Ukrainians only' and spraying white power crosses and swastikas on buildings. I would have thought the Tatars would have realised this too.

 

[TomUS]

The two questions were to join Russia or stay within the borders of Ukraine as they were set out in 1992.

There was no option on the ballot of remaining part of Ukraine.

There are two questions on the referendum:

• “Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?”
• “Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?”

”The ballot actually doesn't give an option to stay in Ukraine," said CBC's Susan Ormiston, reporting from Simferopol in central Crimea. "The second option is to vote for an autonomous Crimea ... so the result is almost decidedly clear that this part of Ukraine will vote to go for Russia today."

This second question refers to a constitution that asserts Crimea is an independent state and not part of Ukraine.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/crimea...ecession-referendum-and-join-russia-1.2574719

 

[sunny jim]

• “Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?”

 

[TomUS]

This second question refers to a constitution that asserts Crimea is an independent state and not part of Ukraine.

 

[sunny jim]

Its an irrelevant argument anyway, its easy to see the vast majority of people in Crimea didnt want to be run by neo nazis. Quite normal really.

 

[Casually Red]

I cant imagine the Tatars being welcomed into a Ukraine that was run by openly neo nazis, proclaiming 'Ukraine for Ukrainians only' and spraying white power crosses and swastikas on buildings. I would have thought the Tatars would have realised this too.

didnt stop them carrying nazi Bandera flags at their demonstration though .

Anyways theyve gotten a far better deal now that Crimea has ceded from Ukraine. The parliament has now introduced proportional representation which will see them get 20 percent of the seats in the executive from hereonin. Their language is now also officially recognised and on a legal par with both Russian and Ukrainian. As well as that the original Tatar place names of some districts that were done away with under Stalin are being restored , theyre getting more funding and the repatriation of the remining expelled diaspora is being funded too. Plus a load of other stuff. Its way way more than theyd ever get from the other lot.

http://rt.com/news/crimea-tatar-rights-guarantee-122/

 

[sunny jim]

This second question refers to a constitution that asserts Crimea is an independent state and not part of Ukraine.

Similar to Catalonia, a region within a larger country. Still in the country though.

 

[Casually Red]

There was no option on the ballot of remaining part of Ukraine.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/crimea...ecession-referendum-and-join-russia-1.2574719

 

[sunny jim]

didnt stop them carrying nazi Bandera flags at their demonstration though .

If thats not a definition of a useful idiot then I dont know what is!

 

[TomUS]

Its an irrelevant argument anyway, its easy to see the vast majority of people in Crimea didnt want to be run by neo nazis. Quite normal really.

I agree the majority wanted to become part of Russia. But they still had to throw in a trick question. Pretty lame to cheat at a game you'd win by playing honestly.

 

[Casually Red]

I agree the majority wanted to become part of Russia. But they still had to throw in a trick question. Pretty lame to cheat at a game you'd win by playing honestly.

what trick question

 

[TomUS]

what trick question

The second one. It contradicts itself.

 

[Casually Red]

how

 

[TomUS]

how

You know exactly how. Bye for now.

 

[sunny jim]

It was leave Crimea as it was in the beginning of February or join Russia. Thats not a trick question.

 

[Casually Red]

You know exactly how. Bye for now.

no i dont . Crimea has been an autonomous republic within Ukraine since 1992. There was no trick . The reporter you quoted was just trying to dishonestly mislead, and youve been misled.

another poster is trying to point this out to you, not just me

 

[sunny jim]

There is no new constitution in Ukraine to join, just gangs of fascist thugs beating people up who disagree with them, spraying white power signs and swastikas and not allowing people to wear red coats.*

*See the Youtube video I posted further up the thread yesterday

 

[Fuchs66]

So Fuchs66, you work for the same people who backed a coup that has promoted neo nazis in to ministerial positions and then you accuse others who oppose this of being in the pay of the Kremlin. Surely, by your own admissions, you're the one who is in the pay of any governmental forces and you back their view. Do they pay you for this?

What the fuck are you wittering on about?

What "people" are you talking about who I'm supposed to be working for and how are they backing any "coup" and how am I in their pay? Please give me a break down of this as I've obviously been totally misinformed of where my money comes from.

 

[Fuchs66]

have you not got any wmd dossiers to sex up ?

Please tell when ever has a "WMD dossier" ever been "sexed up" by me or the organisation I work for. You bullshit spouting mouthpiece.

 

[Fuchs66]

the criticisms are bollocks . Half these wankers spent the start of this thread endlessly arguing with me the maidan rioters werent nazis. Now theyre doing the same thing all over again scoffing at the creation of a paramilitary national guard which theyre insisting isnt a nazi outfit, despite it having an openly neo nazi leadership who have openly stated what the national guards purpose and aims will be .

dishonest fash apologist shits

I believe the first people to start creating dodgy para-military units were the Russians, so that their troops had a couple of old guys to stand next to and make the claims that the actions were being carried out by local forces more believable.

 

[Fuchs66]

It sounds like they dont trust you and might think there are spies among your number.

Maybe they do, or maybe they just can't help themselves slipping back into cold war actions because that's the default setting.

 

[sunny jim]

What the fuck are you wittering on about?

What "people" are you talking about who I'm supposed to be working for and how are they backing any "coup" and how am I in their pay? Please give me a break down of this as I've obviously been totally misinformed of where my money comes from.

You started with the wild accusations about people in the pay of the Kremlin for being against a neo nazi take over. Dont you remember that?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So your saying one guy disagreed

and how could he be banned from participating in a debate that never happened ?

Wasn't allowed to vote in the approval of holding the referendum.

 

[Fuchs66]

you arent a spy though . Personally Ive no problem with a country keeping a very close eye on foreign spies. I think theyre fully entitled to.

Who are you talking about? Me? So now I'm a spy? Fucking try running with that one.

Still I suppose the pay would be better than being an RT internet warrior

 

[sunny jim]

I believe the first people to start creating dodgy para-military units were the Russians, so that their troops had a couple of old guys to stand next to and make the claims that the actions were being carried out by local forces more believable.

Absolute fucking bollocks! The first para-military units in the whole Ukraine debacle was the Right Sector. Bit of selective memory you have there.