Ukraine

[DairyQueen]

Even if the Russian fash armed up before the Ukrainian fash, the Ukrainian ones would still be fash.

 

[Fuchs66]

You started with the wild accusations about people in the pay of the Kremlin for being against a neo nazi take over. Dont you remember that?

Er no I didn't, I would have nothing against someone having concerns about a neo-nazi takeover anywhere, what I have concerns about is someone blindly spouting the Kremlin line, and it makes me wonder why exactly someone would do that. I already said it probably isn't the case, however still suss IMO.

 

[Fuchs66]

Absolute fucking bollocks! The first para-military units in the whole Ukraine debacle was the Right Sector. Bit of selective memory you have there.

Yep they were wreaking havoc with those catapults and gas pistols.

 

[sunny jim]

Oh go fuck yourself. You claimed anybody who was against the coup was paid by the Kremlin. You moron.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Its an irrelevant argument anyway, its easy to see the vast majority of people in Crimea didnt want to be run by neo nazis. Quite normal really.

The people of Crimea have spoken. In yesterday’s referendum, they voted overwhelmingly to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. According to Russia’s Itar-Tass news agency, the vote was 93 percent to 7 percent. According to Russia Today, it was 96 percent to 3 percent.
http://www.slate.com/authors.william_saletan.html
It’s an amazing victory. Even more amazing when you consider that according to the most recent census, 37 percent of the Crimean population is ethnically Ukrainian or Tatar. Yet only 3 to 7 percent voted against leaving Ukraine and embracing Mother Russia.

To be fair, it’s not quite as amazing as last week’s election in North Korea. There, beloved leader Kim Jong-in was re-elected to the parliament with 100 percent of the vote. The ruling party holds all 687 seats. And last year in Cuba, voters approved 100 percent of the national assembly candidates put forward by official nominating committees.
How do exemplary democracies such as Russia, Cuba, and North Korea achieve these mandates? By rigging them, of course

http://www.slate.com/blogs/saletan/...margin_of_victory_shows_the_election_was.html

 

[Fuchs66]

Oh go fuck yourself. You claimed anybody who was against the coup was paid by the Kremlin. You moron.

Provide me with a quote where I said that (I don't think I drank that much rum the other night), otherwise I might get the impression you're talking out of your arse.

 

[DairyQueen]

Provide me with a quote where I said that (I don't think I drank that much rum the other night), otherwise I might get the impression you're talking out of your arse.

Er no I didn't, I would have nothing against someone having concerns about a neo-nazi takeover anywhere, what I have concerns about is someone blindly spouting the Kremlin line, and it makes me wonder why exactly someone would do that. I already said it probably isn't the case, however still suss IMO.

The problem is you have not defined what you think the Kremlin line is.

But just look at your anti-Russian views (Russians were to blame for their poverty in Latvia because of their nostalgia and politics, Russians should not be in Latvia, Russians are unsophisticated, etc, etc). I put a lot of that down to some solidarity with Latvia, but now an as-yet-to-be-determined number of posters are FSB. And then, which really gets to the core of what a lot of people are actually arguing for here, NATO and EU expansion is better than Russian expansion for some reason (regardless of demographics/culture/local politics).

Do you like the Ukrainian right-wing because it chimes with your world-view?

 

[co-op]

You started with the wild accusations about people in the pay of the Kremlin for being against a neo nazi take over. Dont you remember that?

TBF he didn't quite make that claim, just that he "wondered" whether it was true. It's a pretty bizarre claim to make though, given that CR's views are well known on U75 and (even if you don't agree with them) they have internal consistency.

My view on that is, who will get the most credibility, a new poster who appears makes a couple of posts and then disappears just as quickly, or an established poster who can be pushed to post in a certain direction by, for example bunging him a bit of cash? Not saying this is definitely the case but some threads have made me wonder.

I guess (to continue the cold war era nostalgia) those of us who aren't being paid are "useful fools".

 

[DairyQueen]

TBF he didn't quite make that claim, just that he "wondered" whether it was true. It's a pretty bizarre claim to make though, given that CR's views are well known on U75 and (even if you don't agree with them) they have internal consistency.

He said he suspected some people of being Russian spies but didn't name anyone. People said he was talking shit. He backtracked and said it "probably" is not true but is "still suss". So everyone should keep an eye out for those spying Russians because Fuchs66 said they could be manipulating opinion anywhere. You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

[butchersapron]

I think you might be the only person left who finds things "appalling" apart from Prince Charles and selected tory backbenchers.

But seriously, I look forward to what you have to say I was wondering where you were on this thread. I am genuinely puzzled by a lot of what I'm reading.

You're going to have to wait till urgent cat stuff gets done, but oh, you're in for a telling.

 

[Fuchs66]

The problem is you have not defined what you think the Kremlin line is.

But just look at your anti-Russian views (Russians were to blame for their poverty in Latvia because of their nostalgia and politics, Russians should not be in Latvia, Russians are unsophisticated, etc, etc). I put a lot of that down to some solidarity with Latvia, but now an as-yet-to-be-determined number of posters are FSB. And then, which really gets to the core of what a lot of people are actually arguing for here, NATO and EU expansion is better than Russian expansion for some reason (regardless of demographics/culture/local politics).

Do you like the Ukrainian right-wing because it chimes with your world-view?

Bullshit, talk about twisting what I say:

OK one point at a time, Latvian ethnic Russians and poverty, I haven't mentioned wealth distribution between the different ethnic groups once, because I am not aware of the details, (maybe you have some reliable data you'd like to share?). The conversation centred around the claims that the Russian language was not made an official language in Latvia and that many are not in possession of a full Latvian passport. My views on this are: The Latvian language is the official language, the idea of making Russian a second official language was put to the vote and rejected by the majority of voters for reasons I can well understand, I don't necessarily support the idea one way or another but it's not up to me. As far as the passports are concerned all ethnic Russians living in Latvia are entitled to full citizenship (and all kids born there receive it automatically) but many have rejected this offer for various reasons (mainly IMO connected to the shift of power in the country since independence) so as far as that point is concerned yes the individuals have made their decision and should deal with the consequences it brings.

I have never said ethnic Russians should not be in Latvia, you have plucked that out of the air.

I have never said the Russians are unsophisticated but rather (through personal experience) their methods of data collection are unsophisticated.

I have never stated any posters are FSB, just raised my concerns about the tone of some and mentioned that a "Youth Organisation" in Russia has been discovered paying posters on sites such as this one and bloggers to push Moscows POV. I've already stated that this is probably not the case.

I have never stated that NATO expansion is good, I merely said I would RATHER see EU expansion than Russian expansion.

And finally you hint at me being right wing , OK anything else you'd like to make up about me you fuckwit?

 

[Fuchs66]

He said he suspected some people of being Russian spies but didn't name anyone. People said he was talking shit. He backtracked and said it "probably" is not true but is "still suss". So everyone should keep an eye out for those spying Russians because Fuchs66 said they could be manipulating opinion anywhere. You don't see anything wrong with that?

Again quote me where I used those words?

The only person who has mentioned spy here has been CR in relation to me!

 

[Lo Siento.]

It's all very ironic this idea that the Russians are paying people to push their line on the internets, given that USAID astroturf organisations have been a major contributing factor to continuing political instability in the Ukraine for the last decade.

 

[Fuchs66]

It's all very ironic this idea that the Russians are paying people to push their line on the internets, given that USAID astroturf organisations have been a major contributing factor to continuing political instability in the Ukraine for the last decade.

Of course they aren't the only ones playing that game. GCHQ does a lot of dabbling in the internet aswell.

E2A allegedly

 

[butchersapron]

You're going to have to wait till urgent cat stuff gets done, but oh, you're in for a telling.

...and till after the cricket and football, but by god it's coming.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Of course they aren't the only ones playing that game. GCHQ does a lot of dabbling in the internet swell.

E2A allegedly

USAID and their various little offshoots have got to be the absolute global kings of this stuff though, surely?

 

[co-op]

He said he suspected some people of being Russian spies but didn't name anyone. People said he was talking shit. He backtracked and said it "probably" is not true but is "still suss". So everyone should keep an eye out for those spying Russians because Fuchs66 said they could be manipulating opinion anywhere. You don't see anything wrong with that?

I must have missed some of this - but I'm not defending Fuchs66, I think he often talks rubbish and this was an example - just that it was all couched in conditionals and maybes and probablys as far as I saw, not a hard and fast allegation - for the obvious reason that it would be silly.

 

[Fuchs66]

USAID and their various little offshoots have got to be the absolute global kings of this stuff though, surely?

I'm sure they are good at it, however it's not something that has directly affected me (to my knowledge).

 

[co-op]

... in for a telling.

...and till after the cricket and football, but by god it's coming.

Is it possible for you to just say what your opinion is without doing this Hollywood-style "Coming Soon to a movie theatre near you" kind of thing? I value your insights but the whole macho psycho-drama thing undermines it rather than enhances it for me.

 

[Fuchs66]

I must have missed some of this - but I'm not defending Fuchs66, I think he often talks rubbish and this was an example - just that it was all couched in conditionals and maybes and probablys as far as I saw, not a hard and fast allegation - for the obvious reason that it would be silly.

I don't think I even got as far as probably. The feeling's mutual btw

 

[butchersapron]

Is it possible for you to just say what your opinion is without doing this Hollywood-style "Coming Soon to a movie theatre near you" kind of thing? I value your insights but the whole macho psycho-drama thing undermines it rather than enhances it for me.

Macho psycho drama? I was saying i was going to the vets then watching the cricket so any substantial points will have to wait. Sounds pretty humdrum to me.

 

[rekil]

Loads of action films start with perfectly normal everyday scenarios tbf. Who's to say a trip to the vets can't explode into 100 minutes of shirtless oneliner packed aggro.

 

[DotCommunist]

starring liam neeson

 

[ViolentPanda]

I remember that when the Warsaw Pact was broken up Nato had also said they would retract and disappear.
Instead all we have seen in the last 25 years is western expansion into countries bordering Russia.
Russia get nervous when the 'Buffer Nations' disappear and get filled with intimidating pro western governments.

Have to admit I'm amused by the way that Conservative MPs are torn on the subject. They want Russia punished, but are aware that a unified response by the EU member states risks binding the UK ever more tightly to the EU.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What, like in the Baltic states where they hold regular SS commemoration marches?

Like happened in Belgium well into the '90s when Degrelle's scumbags finally got banned from doing so?

And treat ethnic Russians as second class citizens? Would that float your boat?

There's always going to be an element of "payback", unfortunately. That ethnic Russians as individuals and communities are being made (in some cases) to suffer for the crimes of the Russo-centric Soviet Union is both wrong and sad, but it is, unfortunately, psychologically-understandable. People who've been oppressed often lash out at anything that reminds them of their oppressors.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So Fuchs66, you work for the same people who backed a coup that has promoted neo nazis in to ministerial positions and then you accuse others who oppose this of being in the pay of the Kremlin. Surely, by your own admissions, you're the one who is in the pay of any governmental forces and you back their view. Do they pay you for this?

Jim, don't be a twat. He works for an organisation that is part of the UN a weapons-conrol organisation). He doesn't work for the UN itself as an executor of UN foreign policy.

 

[Casually Red]

Hes too easy as fuck to wind up to be a proper spy.

eta

or is that what he wants us to think

 

[andysays]

There's always going to be an element of "payback", unfortunately. That ethnic Russians as individuals and communities are being made (in some cases) to suffer for the crimes of the Russo-centric Soviet Union is both wrong and sad, but it is, unfortunately, psychologically-understandable. People who've been oppressed often lash out at anything that reminds them of their oppressors.

It might be psychologically understandable in some cases (though as far as I am aware no one posting here can actually claim that justification), but that certainly doesn't make it right, or any less an example of those historical crimes or oppressions being used by a few in an attempt to manipulate people today.

And of course, we could argue that the Russians might be justified psychologically in having a fear of being over-run by the West, again, but that wouldn't make Putin's using that fear to manipulate the current situation any better.

 

[Fuchs66]

Hes too easy as fuck to wind up to be a proper spy.

eta

or is that what he wants us to think

Me? Wound up? By you?

Dont overestimate your influence.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I don't understand why so much effort is expended calling each other Kremlin/Washington shills. Whatever happened to "neither Washington nor Moscow but International Socialism" and all that entails?

I don't support the Kiev government to be honest, because it's barely legitimate as it is and it's propped up by external EU-support and the far-right. But that doesn't mean I think Putin's in any way justified in annexing Crimea. I can understand why he would do it, but I don't agree with it, it's taking the piss out of international law and totally exposes how pointless that liberal international relations framework is once Great Power realpolitick gets involved.