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Ukraine

thriller said:
due to poor training. as a 11 year old how i laughed at videos of the "elite" republican guards "training" which involved crawling under wire while a comrade sprayed blank bullets into the sand. :facepalm:
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simulated live fire training is facepalmworthy because?
 
they probably werent even blanks . Bloke doesnt strike me as a military genius . Not even when he was 11 . An 11 year olds impresson of the telly 20 years on doesnt strike me as all that authorative a statement as to the efficacy of anyones training methods.
 
Casually Red said:
id say theres a very real chance of that challenge emerging as Ive emphasised time and time again this regimes economic policies will be characterised by both bankruptcy, and IMF and EU imposed austerity policies combined with economic isolation from their main Russian market and the destruction of their own economic base by EU imports. The people will react to that very unfavourably and they know it, which is why theyve openly referred to theselves as the suicide administration . They fully anticipate being widely hated for their impending necessary reforms

But whats dismissed by Idris for example as simplistic is me pointing out their rather obvious answer to that challenge will be a new internal security force led by and comprised of neo nazis, imbued with a neo nazi ideological ethos. Which will take the view such a challenge is treachery to the nation, the work of Russian, communist and jew agitators etc And that is how any progressive challenge will be addressed, by smashing it . Pointing out this is what nazis are for is only simplistic because this is nazisms traditional role, capitalisms attack dogs .

the nazis are openly beating up journalists in front of tv cameras, making them resign in front of cameras for being off message . Declaring it treachery to Ukraine. Thats how their opponents are going to be dealt with and this new neo nazi led internal security force will be the means to squash dissent and protest, along with a neo nazi led prosector office and judiciary .
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Woah, hang on there a minute. . . wee man. What I find simplistic is not your opinion of the likely consequences of 'structural adjustment' Ukraine style, which I happen to think is very likely indeed. . . it's your apparent belief that if the West are a shower of arseholes, butch Mr. Putin must be the better choice.

It's a bit of a mirror image of the academic's comments I linked to in that post, which were the work of someone trying to kid himself that the fascists don't exist and that this is November 11th 1989 all over again. The fascists certainly do exist, but how exactly those filthy swine will influence events is not something we can read off simply based on their presence in the vortex of events.

Altogether now:

Fuck 'em all, fuck 'em all,

The long and the short and the tall.
 
Casually Red said:
if this is how its playing out it looks like the fash can kiss goodbye to their naval assets as well, worth billions more.
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You've now repeatedly referred to the Ukranians in general as "the Fascists" or some similar construction.

Just so we're quite clear, could you clarify whether you're referring to the entire Ukranian population, the entire Ukranian speaking population; any of the Ukranian population who don't wish to be re-absorbed into Russia; all of the new Ukranian state and their associated state forces; a significant portion of the new Ukranian govt, state and state forces; or some other sub-set of Ukranians.

Because it seems to me that referring to them in this way smacks of tarring all Ukranians with the brush of Fascism, the better to imply their collective guilt and their responsibility for bringing on themselves whatever shit now happens to them, which you seem to be referring to with the sort of glee which suggests that you're happy to see them get what's presumably coming to them.

Oh, and by the way, it's "all your base [singular] are belong to us"

base.jpg
 
Idris2002 said:
Woah, hang on there a minute. . . wee man. What I find simplistic is not your opinion of the likely consequences of 'structural adjustment' Ukraine style, which I happen to think is very likely indeed. . . it's your apparent belief that if the West are a shower of arseholes, butch Mr. Putin must be the better choice.

It's a bit of a mirror image of the academic's comments I linked to in that post, which were the work of someone trying to kid himself that the fascists don't exist and that this is November 11th 1989 all over again. The fascists certainly do exist, but how exactly those filthy swine will influence events is not something we can read off simply based on their presence in the vortex of events.

Altogether now:

Fuck 'em all, fuck 'em all,

The long and the short and the tall.
Click to expand...

Putin might be a better choice. He helped put a stop to what could have been a third world war kicking off over Syria.
 
andysays said:
You've now repeatedly referred to the Ukranians in general as "the Fascists" or some similar construction.

Just so we're quite clear, could you clarify whether you're referring to the entire Ukranian population, the entire Ukranian speaking population; any of the Ukranian population who don't wish to be re-absorbed into Russia; all of the new Ukranian state and their associated state forces; a significant portion of the new Ukranian govt, state and state forces; or some other sub-set of Ukranians.

Because it seems to me that referring to them in this way smacks of tarring all Ukranians with the brush of Fascism, the better to imply their collective guilt and their responsibility for bringing on themselves whatever shit now happens to them, which you seem to be referring to with the sort of glee which suggests that you're happy to see them get what's presumably coming to them.

Oh, and by the way, it's "all your base [singular] are belong to us"

base.jpg
Click to expand...

well given that its highly unlikely the avarage Ukrainian will be directing mig fighters to go anywhere its highly unlikely Im referring to the Ukrainian population. Who I have continually pointed out actually voted for Yanukovich and not the fascist and neo liberal cabal that illegally took power by violent means.
In a number of my posts Ive also expressed major concern that this new fascist led and staffed National Guard is going to be used as an instrument of oppression against the Ukrainian population. So I fail to see where your concerns im labelling them as fascists could derive from. Except from a desire just to attack me as a poster.
Which your nitpicking over a cartoon into a bargain would lead me to suspect is the case.

anyways, your point is daft. Extremely so.
 
Casually Red said:
well given that its highly unlikely the avarage Ukrainian will be directing mig fighters to go anywhere its highly unlikely Im referring to the Ukrainian population. Who I have continually pointed out actually voted for Yanukovich and not the fascist and neo liberal cabal that illegally took power by violent means.
In a number of my posts Ive also expressed major concern that this new fascist led and staffed National Guard is going to be used as an instrument of oppression against the Ukrainian population. So I fail to see where your concerns im labelling them as fascists could derive from. Except from a desire just to attack me as a poster.
Which your nitpicking over a cartoon into a bargain would lead me to suspect is the case.

anyways, your point is daft. Extremely so.
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But to actually answer the question...?
 
Fuchs66 said:
Bullshit, talk about twisting what I say:

OK one point at a time, Latvian ethnic Russians and poverty, I haven't mentioned wealth distribution between the different ethnic groups once, because I am not aware of the details, (maybe you have some reliable data you'd like to share?). The conversation centred around the claims that the Russian language was not made an official language in Latvia and that many are not in possession of a full Latvian passport. My views on this are: The Latvian language is the official language, the idea of making Russian a second official language was put to the vote and rejected by the majority of voters for reasons I can well understand, I don't necessarily support the idea one way or another but it's not up to me. As far as the passports are concerned all ethnic Russians liBut is it an "ongoing contemporary injustice"?
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Fuck off.

Fuchs66 said:
How I see it the ethnic Russian population want to carry on with the historical injustice. They are accepted within the country (and I can speak for Latvia with some knowledge) they have their own political representation, they have their own social events that are widely attended by Latvians of all ethnicities and yet they seem to be pining for the good old days when they were the top dogs in someone else's country.
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Fuchs66 said:
It's a long way from what Stalin did but what happened during the Soviet era is the basis for what is going on now and I think the actions by the Latvian government, backed by the majority of the population are perfectly understandable and acceptable. Unless you know of any outrages imposed against the ethnic Russian that I don't know about.
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You are basically a Latvian UKipper.
 
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Idris2002 said:
Woah, hang on there a minute. . . wee man. What I find simplistic is not your opinion of the likely consequences of 'structural adjustment' Ukraine style, which I happen to think is very likely indeed. . . it's your apparent belief that if the West are a shower of arseholes, butch Mr. Putin must be the better choice.

.
Click to expand...

I believe he is the better choice not just because the west are a shower of arseholes. As has been pointed out to you he stopped another disastrous war against Syria. Syria in turn supports the resistance against zionism. He supports other progressive nations in Latin America by both military, technological and trade means. He was furious at how a UN resolution was perverted to overthrow sovereign Libya, and was a lone voice in Eueope taking a stand against it . He prevents the UN security council rubber stamping all sorts of crazy American inspired stuff. He acts as the voice on that security council for the vast majority of nations in the world who oppose what the west does but despite them being the majority the wishes of the general assembly are routinely ignored by the western powers. He gives them a voice and a say. Which the racist bastard western media calls Russia holding the world to ransom. When the only world they are referring to is the white western world.

He protected Snowden when the western powers were forcing presidnetial aircraft out of the skies. And as I also pointed out hes just turned the entire western discourse on their exceptionalism and Blairs Chicago doctrine right over. Right in the middle of McCain and a few others simultaneously agitating for military intervention in Venezuela to protect civilians while overseeing a successful coup in Ukraine.
Ive pointed all of this out regularly, its far from simplistic and certainly not as simplistic as that utter rubbish youve just stated is my case . Which is a lot more insulting than wee man frankly



It's a bit of a mirror image of the academic's comments I linked to in that post, which were the work of someone trying to kid himself that the fascists don't exist and that this is November 11th 1989 all over again. The fascists certainly do exist, but how exactly those filthy swine will influence events is not something we can read off simply based on their presence in the vortex of events.

Altogether now:

Fuck 'em all, fuck 'em all,

The long and the short and the tall

no it isnt. The fascists dont just exist. They have acheived medium term objectives. Theyve got their hands on the levers of physical power in the state. Not just the prosecutors office but their own paramilitary armed movement that will engage in both a policing role, a military role and intelligence role. Thats not just a presence, a few seats in a parliament like the BNP. Its the power of freedom or imprisonment, life and death over any Ukrainian. The power to intimidate, arrest, assault, kill and silence anyone in Ukraine. To even threaten government.

So no, Im not neutral in this in the slightest. Fuck the nazis and support those who oppose them. And fuck Nato and Blairs exceptionalism too.
 
Having received no replies to my generous offer, I have now decided to put my plea to the Russian government and its agents in the form of song and dance...

 
Casually Red said:
I believe he is the better choice not just because the west are a shower of arseholes. As has been pointed out to you he stopped another disastrous war against Syria. Syria in turn supports the resistance against zionism. He supports other progressive nations in Latin America by both military, technological and trade means. He was furious at how a UN resolution was perverted to overthrow sovereign Libya, and was a lone voice in Eueope taking a stand against it . He prevents the UN security council rubber stamping all sorts of crazy American inspired stuff. He acts as the voice on that security council for the vast majority of nations in the world who oppose what the west does but despite them being the majority the wishes of the general assembly are routinely ignored by the western powers. He gives them a voice and a say. Which the racist bastard western media calls Russia holding the world to ransom. When the only world they are referring to is the white western world.

He protected Snowden when the western powers were forcing presidnetial aircraft out of the skies. And as I also pointed out hes just turned the entire western discourse on their exceptionalism and Blairs Chicago doctrine right over. Right in the middle of McCain and a few others simultaneously agitating for military intervention in Venezuela to protect civilians while overseeing a successful coup in Ukraine.
Ive pointed all of this out regularly, its far from simplistic and certainly not as simplistic as that utter rubbish youve just stated is my case . Which is a lot more insulting than wee man frankly


It's a bit of a mirror image of the academic's comments I linked to in that post, which were the work of someone trying to kid himself that the fascists don't exist and that this is November 11th 1989 all over again. The fascists certainly do exist, but how exactly those filthy swine will influence events is not something we can read off simply based on their presence in the vortex of events.

Altogether now:

Fuck 'em all, fuck 'em all,

The long and the short and the tall

no it isnt. The fascists dont just exist. They have acheived medium term objectives. Theyve got their hands on the levers of physical power in the state. Not just the prosecutors office but their own paramilitary armed movement that will engage in both a policing role, a military role and intelligence role. Thats not just a presence, a few seats in a parliament like the BNP. Its the power of freedom or imprisonment, life and death over any Ukrainian. The power to intimidate, arrest, assault, kill and silence anyone in Ukraine. To even threaten government.

So no, Im not neutral in this in the slightest. Fuck the nazis and support those who oppose them. And fuck Nato and Blairs exceptionalism too.
Click to expand...

Actually, I share a lot of your scepticism regarding the 'civilising mission' of the western imperialists. I simply can't follow you down the rabbit hole of believing that Putin must be a people's champion because he opposes Downing Street, the Elysee palace and the white house (and not forgetting the Bundestag).

As for the fascists achieving their medium term goals, don't forget that in Italy in 1923 and Germany ten years later they were handed fully functioning, more or less modern states on a platter. Present-day Ukraine is a far more dysfunctional entity (as you point out) and they will find that this will limit their capacity to crank up the gas chambers and get the cremos working again. That doesn't mean we should pretend they don't exist like the liberals do, but we shouldn't act like they're a bigger threat than they are.

I'm not saying there's nothing to worry about, I'm saying let's keep a clear head and wait and see.
 
He

This is the coherency co-op wants: He.

Thread went the way i hoped it didn't. Geopolitics/parroting of a mass of paid apologists. Then us talking about that apologia.
 
butchersapron said:
He
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Who must be obeyed? :confused:

E2A: Ah I get it, you are critiquing my implication that Putin is acting alone rather than riding a complex tiger made up of competing factions within the oligarchy, and the need to manage the Russian masses.

That just makes it harder to see him as Flash! He'll save every one of us! Flash!
 
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