Ukraine

[laptop]

So Fuchs66, you work for the same people who backed a coup that has promoted neo nazis in to ministerial positions and then you accuse others who oppose this of being in the pay of the Kremlin. Surely, by your own admissions, you're the one who is in the pay of any governmental forces and you back their view. Do they pay you for this?

I really don't think the organisation that Fuchs66 works for has backed any coups, ever.

Nor, for that matter, has its parent the UN - from which it is politically independent - backed any recently.

 

[sunny jim]

My tongue was firmly in my cheek with that post, but tbh he started with the wild accusations and its him who works in government/diplomatic circles.

 

[Casually Red]

So by your keen analysis I'm a fascist aswell! You really are a fucking idiot I hope you are getting a decent payment for this because I have to admit you do put the effort in.

have you not got any wmd dossiers to sex up ?

 

[Casually Red]

Got to say that CR might go over the top in his anti-western worldview (imo) but he hasn't gone as far as the "let's include the nazis in a govt of national unity" line which I've seen anarchists on here openly (and incontestedly) argue for. Most seem to be too busy slagging off Russia as if they are still fighting old anarchist/trot battles with the USSR.

This whole thread contains tons of data supporting the idea that there is a significant far-right - and we are talking openly Nazi far right - element in the street level activities that overthrew Yanukovich and now in the new Kiev regime and that it is that element that is setting the political agenda in Kiev and the Western Ukraine. So far the CR analysis is ahead of any alternatives I've seen on here, as are (imo) his predictions for just how shitty things are going to get for the eastern Ukraine once EU/IMF re-structuring programmes get under way.

Somewhere in all that gloom, is a chance that the nationalists will find themselves unable to deliver any meaningful economic or political policies that improve anyones lives at all except the super rich and then maybe some kind of progressive alliance will emerge to challenge the western nationalist coup govt but I'm not holding my breath at the moment.

the criticisms are bollocks . Half these wankers spent the start of this thread endlessly arguing with me the maidan rioters werent nazis. Now theyre doing the same thing all over again scoffing at the creation of a paramilitary national guard which theyre insisting isnt a nazi outfit, despite it having an openly neo nazi leadership who have openly stated what the national guards purpose and aims will be .

dishonest fash apologist shits

 

[sunny jim]

I really don't think the organisation that Fuchs66 works for has backed any coups, ever.

Nor, for that matter, has its parent the UN - from which it is politically independent - backed any recently.

The Nuland phone call that was hacked is famous for the "fuck the EU" comment - fuck the EU and get the UN to "glue this thing together" was what was said. Ban-ki-moon then got involved just after with comments supporting regime change but obviously by now he had been discredited so what he said was pretty much ignored.

 

[Casually Red]

So Fuchs66, you work for the same people who backed a coup that has promoted neo nazis in to ministerial positions and then you accuse others who oppose this of being in the pay of the Kremlin. Surely, by your own admissions, you're the one who is in the pay of any governmental forces and you back their view. Do they pay you for this?

who knows

http://rt.com/news/five-eyes-online-manipulation-deception-564/

 

[Casually Red]

Well when we work in Russia (by far the worst) we are confined to a walled compound, about 100m x 200m, in our free time and confined to a small office when we work. We are allowed 1 escorted trip for a couple of hours per week to the nearest town. We are constantly under supervision and it gets quite oppressive at times.

It sounds like they dont trust you and might think there are spies among your number.

 

[DotCommunist]

christ when did steven seagull get so old

 

[Casually Red]

So turns out Casually Red was KGB all along?

i havent reported or kept tabs on anyone for the russians since at least 1985

 

[DotCommunist]

i havent reported or kept tabs on anyone for the russians since at least 1985

laziness is noted

 

[Casually Red]

Somewhere in all that gloom, is a chance that the nationalists will find themselves unable to deliver any meaningful economic or political policies that improve anyones lives at all except the super rich and then maybe some kind of progressive alliance will emerge to challenge the western nationalist coup govt but I'm not holding my breath at the moment.

id say theres a very real chance of that challenge emerging as Ive emphasised time and time again this regimes economic policies will be characterised by both bankruptcy, and IMF and EU imposed austerity policies combined with economic isolation from their main Russian market and the destruction of their own economic base by EU imports. The people will react to that very unfavourably and they know it, which is why theyve openly referred to theselves as the suicide administration . They fully anticipate being widely hated for their impending necessary reforms

But whats dismissed by Idris for example as simplistic is me pointing out their rather obvious answer to that challenge will be a new internal security force led by and comprised of neo nazis, imbued with a neo nazi ideological ethos. Which will take the view such a challenge is treachery to the nation, the work of Russian, communist and jew agitators etc And that is how any progressive challenge will be addressed, by smashing it . Pointing out this is what nazis are for is only simplistic because this is nazisms traditional role, capitalisms attack dogs .

the nazis are openly beating up journalists in front of tv cameras, making them resign in front of cameras for being off message . Declaring it treachery to Ukraine. Thats how their opponents are going to be dealt with and this new neo nazi led internal security force will be the means to squash dissent and protest, along with a neo nazi led prosector office and judiciary .

 

[Casually Red]

He did once claim that in the event of a Soviet invasion of Ireland (presumably they would have a taken a wrong turn while looking for Beachy Head in fog) he stood ready to grass people up for counter-revolutionary activity.

to be more precise I was actively keeping a diary with a few names in it, namely teachers along with quotes from their regular anti soviet lectures. And I informed them of this. It was their own fault because they kept telling us the Russians wanted to invade, so....

 

[classicdish]

...But whats dismissed by Idris for example as simplistic is me pointing out their rather obvious answer to that challenge will be a new internal security force led by and comprised of neo nazis, imbued with a neo nazi ideological ethos. Which will take the view such a challenge is treachery to the nation, the work of Russian, communist and jew agitators etc And that is how any progressive challenge will be addressed, by smashing it . Pointing out this is what nazis are for is only simplistic because this is nazisms traditional role, capitalisms attack dogs...

It's not 'simplistic', it's a steaming pile of shite you have invented.

 

[classicdish]

I was watching a TV report this morning that showed a journalist ringing up one of its recruitment centres and enquiring about membership . He was told right away what the pay was going to be, in dollars . Which is doubly interesting because quite a few reports Ive seen have made clear the Ukrainian army and navy havent been paid in a while , 2 months according to some, with the state being bankrupt and unable to even pay its gas bills . Which would suggest the western funding is being chanelled straight into this new paramilitary and fascist force .

"RT contacted the National Guard recruitment office in Donetsk to find out just how easy it is to sign up for the force. “You conclude a contract on a term of five or three years,” the operator on the phone said. “Salary is 1,800 hryvnas (around US$300). You have to be suitable in health and have no convictions or fines with the police. You should be from 18 to 40 years old,” the office stated over the phone."

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-national-guard-training-937/

...and so on and so forth...

 

[Casually Red]

It's not 'simplistic', it's a steaming pile of shite you have invented.

your just after posting an article which has a National Guard spokesman openly admit its membership will mainly comprise the maidan rioters, who we know are neo nazis.

“Most volunteers have battle experience. Most of them protected the rights and freedom of citizens of Ukraine at Maidan,” Stepan Poltorak, a commander with the Ukrainian Interior Troops, told RT.

I hate to have to give you further tips and advice, but if youre intent on repeatedly contradicting me then you might want to try posting stuff that actually contradicts the points Im making as opposed to backing them up.

Just a thought.

 

[Casually Red]

Medvedevs seriously rubbing it in now. Hes saying that the deal they made with the Ukrianian government on hosting the black Sea fleet no longer applies, obviously as Crimeas part of Russia now. And that means the 11 billion the Ukrainians got out of the deal will have to be paid back
Also as discounted gas is part of a deal that no longer exists the price of Russian gas is going to up pretty sharply. The coup cant pay the gas bill as it is and owe them billions already . Plus they owe them another 3 billion in loans.

http://rt.com/business/russia-ukraine-debt-kharkov-313/

 

[classicdish]

So about this payment in US dollars you claim to have 'heard' about ... not just invented?

I deliberately quoted rt.com so you wouldn't just scream 'western media lies'.

...its membership will mainly comprise the maidan rioters...

60,000 Right Sector rioters? A few weeks ago you were saying there were just a handful of them.

But of course all you can do is switch the subject away from the dollar payments issue that I quoted. Try again.

 

[Casually Red]

So about this payment in US dollars you claim to have 'heard' about ... not just invented?

I deliberately quoted rt.com so you wouldn't just scream 'western media lies'.

60,000 Right Sector rioters? A few weeks ago you were saying there were just a handful of them.

But of course all you can do is switch the subject away from the dollar payments issue that I quoted. Try again.

try this, Ive asked were the money is coming from. The government are bankrupt and cant pay their own troops wages. So whos paying the nazis wages ?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Can you seriously think of no other examples of countries that you reckon are a bit naughty other than Nazi Germany?

You seem to have a problem with references to Nazi Germany for some reason.

 

[Casually Red]

laziness is noted

blame Gorbachev

 

[sunny jim]

This was on tv last night and I'm posting it not as a derail but to show what depths the CIA will go to to topple a regime. I realise its a different country and the exact same tactics weren't used in Ukraine but its worth watching for an insight into how devious the black ops used by the CIA 60 years ago were. The point I'm trying to make is that if the US wants to get rid of a regime without having to go to war with it, the CIA will use all sorts of dirty tricks to make it happen.
http://yesterday.uktv.co.uk/shows/cia-declassified/watch-online/

 

[TomUS]

The point I'm trying to make is that if the US wants to get rid of a regime without having to go to war with it, the CIA will use all sorts of dirty tricks to make it happen.
http://yesterday.uktv.co.uk/shows/cia-declassified/watch-online/

Yes the US overthrew Arbenz. Everyone knows this. Not exactly relevant to recent events in Ukraine. There's plenty of dirty tricks blame to go around such as invading Crimea using masked troops in unmarked uniforms & claiming they're self defense militias & then holding a joke of a referendum to justify it after the fact. And then woopee! lets have a party with fireworks to celebrate the conquest.

 

[co-op]

co-ops posts have been appalling today and yesterday btw. Yes, i will tell you why.

I think you might be the only person left who finds things "appalling" apart from Prince Charles and selected tory backbenchers.

But seriously, I look forward to what you have to say I was wondering where you were on this thread. I am genuinely puzzled by a lot of what I'm reading.

 

[sunny jim]

Yes the US overthrew Arbenz. Everyone knows this. Not exactly relevant to recent events in Ukraine. There's plenty of dirty tricks blame to go around such as invading Crimea using masked troops in unmarked uniforms & claiming they're self defense militias & then holding a joke of a referendum to justify it after the fact. And then woopee! lets have a party with fireworks to celebrate the conquest.

Well, there's big question marks over the sniper fire at Euro Maiden which seemed to be a catalyst for the overthrow of Yanukovych and as Casually Red says who's paying the Right Sector and was there any training going on for them beforehand. These are classic types of black ops the CIA were up to 60 years ago - so they've had a lot of practise since then to hone their skils.

 

[sunny jim]

Surely the rush referendum in Crimea was to counter the fact that unelected neo nazis were in control in Kiev and the people living in Crimea didn't want this to happen to them. So not black ops/dirty tricks at all.

 

[co-op]

So not really black ops/dirty tricks at all.

Yes. It was not exactly an undercover op. If Putin has been trying to play the Ukraine game internally, he has done so pretty badly; his boy got run out of town on a rail and Putin ended up having to use the army in plain view of the world to get what he probably thinks is a bare minimum of what Russia ought to get.

 

[Casually Red]

Jeeeesus... So you do work for Blackwater
Seriously though, had none of that myself. I did a 4 month stint in Moscow and had complete freedom of movement. Just the odd passport and visa checks (both very close to the Kremlin).
Went out to loads of bars/clubs and met a fair few ex-pats, none telling stories like that. All in all I had a hoot out there.
The Russians I met through work or socialising were very friendly and great hosts.

you arent a spy though . Personally Ive no problem with a country keeping a very close eye on foreign spies. I think theyre fully entitled to.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Surely the rush referendum in Crimea was to counter the fact that unelected neo nazis were in control in Kiev and the people living in Crimea didn't want this to happen to them. So not black ops/dirty tricks at all.

So why no debate in the Crimean legislature about the referendum?

 

[TomUS]

Surely the rush referendum in Crimea was to counter the fact that unelected neo nazis were in control in Kiev and the people living in Crimea didn't want this to happen to them. So not black ops/dirty tricks at all.

The referendum was a dirty trick. There was no option of voting to stay part of Ukraine. I'm sure that if an honest referendum had been held the vote would have been to leave Ukraine. But they still cheated.

 

[sunny jim]

So why no debate in the Crimean legislature about the referendum?

Time I suppose. Armed fascists were in control of the capital and things were moving at a very fast pace.