Ukraine

[frogwoman]

Just posting the translation of it. What is known is the CIA have used all sorts of black ops in previous regime changes/coups including the training of fascists to carry out their dirty work. The CIA have a vast history, going back decades, of this kind of thing.

I think both sides have a similar history tbh.

 

[ViolentPanda]

At least Crimea had a referendum which is more than what Kosovo had when it unilaterally declared independence which was against the UN Charter and illegal under international law . The UK , USA governments and others are hypocritical, hard faced liars when they criticise Putin and Crimea, but support what Kosovo did.

Although frankly that's a bit like saying "at least the burglar closed the door behind him".

 

[frogwoman]

To be fair given the treatment of kosovan Albanians by milosevic I can completely understand why many of them wouldn't want to be 'an eternal part of Serbia'

 

[ViolentPanda]

due to poor training. as a 11 year old how i laughed at videos of the "elite" republican guards "training" which involved crawling under wire while a comrade sprayed blank bullets into the sand.

So even as a child, you were a repulsively-sadistic person.

Figures.

 

[goldenecitrone]

It was done on purpose, dumbo. To show up your ridiculousness.

Some touching support for your homophobic mate in his conspiraloonacy. That's not ridiculous at all.

 

[Kesher]

Although frankly that's a bit like saying "at least the burglar closed the door behind him".

Frankly, I'm not sure I understand your analogy

 

[sunny jim]

I think both sides have a similar history tbh.

If you mean both sides as in the old Soviet Union and the US, when did the SU use fascists to promote neo liberalism?

 

[sunny jim]

Some touching support for your homophobic mate in his conspiraloonacy. That's not ridiculous at all.

You don't think the fascists in Kiev, who you seem to support, might be a touch more homophobic than Russia. You know, seeing as they are fascists.

 

[frogwoman]

If you mean both sides as in the old Soviet Union and the US, when did the SU use fascists to promote neo liberalism?

I wasn't talking about the soviet union but come on there have been plenty of occasions where Russia lined up with some seriously dodgy characters in it's 'near abroad' including racist Armenian separatists in Nagorno Karabakh and war criminals in Abkhazia

 

[frogwoman]

You don't think the fascists in Kiev, who you seem to support, might be a touch more homophobic than Russia. You know, seeing as they are fascists.

There are fash on both sides ffs. As you know I am no fan of the right wing nationalist government in Kiev which includes actual neo Nazis but if you think Russia is any better you are seriously deluding yourself.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not content with mere military conquest of territory, Putin has ordered his goons to steal Ukraine's ships now.

Not really. It's more an order to take advantage of any situation that has propaganda value for Russia. Currently, that includes humiliating Kyiv. Of course, one needs to also pay attention to the fact that Kyiv may well be entirely happy with some short-term humiliation if it mobilises Ukrainian sentiment rightwards, and towards military "solutions".

 

[sunny jim]

There are fash on both sides ffs. As you know I am no fan of the right wing nationalist government in Kiev which includes actual neo Nazis but if you think Russia is any better you are seriously deluding yourself.

Well, one side are actual fans of Hitler and in my book that makes them worse.

 

[ViolentPanda]

its possible theyre aware many of their own troops might have disobeyed orders. There were plenty of senior defections reported from the very beginning. It might have been very embarassing to order them to withdraw only to find a lot of them fancied staying in a relatively prosperous country compared to a bankrupt entity determined to go even more bankrupt facing all sorts of chaos and IMF austerity.

It's equally possible that Kyiv are deliberately allowing the humiliation of their military, in order to tighten political control.

Or preferred joining an army that actually paid their wages.

Mmmm, because the Russian army has such good form for doing that.
Cabbages, anyone?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, one side are actual fans of Hitler and in my book that makes them worse.

Nope, elements of one side are actual Hitler-fans.

 

[goldenecitrone]

You don't think the fascists in Kiev, who you seem to support, might be a touch more homophobic than Russia. You know, seeing as they are fascists.

Homophobes are cunts. Everywhere. And nobody on this entire board supports any fascists in Kiev. Not one single poster. It's pretty delusional to even claim that.

 

[frogwoman]

And recently (and not so recently) there have been examples of extreme homophobia from the Russian state which has banned any positive and neutral depictions of homosexuality, there have been a number of examples of antisemitism from public officials including someone who was wrongly jailed, there are routine depictions of antisemitism from the Russian Orthodox Church and extreme homophobia, it's not like nobody in Russia is a fan of Hitler either.

I get what you are saying but this is an issue where you can't take 'sides' on, I know all about pro-European politics in these countries and how political issues become racialized and linked to the far right, you cannot ignore the fact that Russia today is not some sort of anti fascist rampart, and neither are the pro Russian parties in these places, the former communist party president of Moldova described someone I once worked with as 'a negro that climbed down from a tree' this has nothing to do with opposing fascism ... Nothing

 

[frogwoman]

Elements of both sides frankly.

 

[DairyQueen]

Of course, one needs to also pay attention to the fact that Kyiv may well be entirely happy with some short-term humiliation if it mobilises Ukrainian sentiment rightwards, and towards military "solutions".

I realize your sympathies are with Ukraine but you're clutching at straws. Their navy has gone (including the HQ), they've lost all their assets in Crimea except the shamefully small number of soldiers that did not defect.

That is not the type of propaganda that the new Ukrainian government would have wanted. It is fairly obvious that Ukraine's military would be decimated by Russia within weeks if not days if there is further escalations in the east of the country.

 

[sunny jim]

In an ideal world Russia will have no part in taking down the fascist regime in Kiev, hopefully it will be leftist Ukrainians who carry this out. If that does happen you can be sure some posters on here will claim they're nothing but Russian stooges carrying out the work of Putin.

 

[ViolentPanda]

heres some well interesting stuff as regards the Gladio type aspect of this coup . The yanks have pumped something like 5 billion into the groups involved in overthrowing the state but this looks like it could be a bit more than just money thats been on offer . What it seems to be is a paramilitary training camp for the Ukrainian fash in Estonia some years back, were the fash were learning all sorts of nasty stuff including home made explosives, firearms, rockets, IEDs, booby traps . The whole insurgent panoply pretty much . Its claimed that this camp was sponsored by NATO . Im not entirely sure of the providence of that but US and British flags seem to be very prominent for some reason, no idea why . And the weapons they are training with are definitely brand new, pretty spotless and NATO issue along with the equally spotless ammo boxes. Theres climbing towers there too . This definitely isnt some backyard Combat 18 affair .Looks very much the real deal .

http://varjag-2007.livejournal.com/5599918.html

theres a couple of videos of their lectures linked to there . Would be interested in knowing what the lecturer was saying to his nazi students being instructed in the art of killing lots of people.

Shame the guy doesn't really detail the Russian side of the equation, and how much the Putinists have pumped into political and paramilitary black ops in Ukraine.

A couple of other points:

1) There's no such thing as "NATO-issue" weapons. NATO members are only required to issue weapons with compatible ammunition calibres.
2) The firing systems for their Claymore-equivalents are home-made. I'm sure Fuchs will correct me if I'm wrong, but the anti-personnel mines themselves look Yugo/post-Yugo.
3) The weapons (which all "Look brand new" because sensible people look after firearms, keep them clean and oiled, and generally don't use them as hammers or crowbars):
H & K MP5 in sub-machine gun configuration (standard issue for only one NATO-member force).
H & K MP5 in carbine configuration (a police weapon that's available in many countries as a semi-auto "personal defence" weapon. Can be altered to give selective fire from single shot, to burst mode, to fully auto, with "aftermarket" parts).
Uzi machine pistol (not standard-issue with ANY NATO member, although some special forces units use them because of portability)
Minimi light machine gun (standard issue with half of NATO's members, as well as being used by military forces around the world).
MP40 - Never used by NATO.

So basically your suppositions about the weapons are what I like to call "complete bollocks".

 

[ViolentPanda]

I realize your sympathies are with Ukraine but you're clutching at straws. Their navy has gone (including the HQ), they've lost all their assets in Crimea except the shamefully small number of soldiers that did not defect.

That is not the type of propaganda that the new Ukrainian government would have wanted. It is fairly obvious that Ukraine's military would be decimated by Russia within weeks if not days if there is further escalations in the east of the country.

Hmmm, because the Kyiv govt won't paint the "deserting" forces as "pro-Russian elements", go on about a "stab in the back", and engineer their own political perpetuation out of this. After all, there's no historical precedent, is there?

 

[andysays]

Is it just Google Chrome that has a translation function then? If an article is in a foreign language then an automatic translation icon appears to get it into English.

I haven't noticed any automatic translation icon when using Mozilla Firefox, but then I don't claim to be the most IT aware, so it might be staring me in the face and I wouldn't notice it.

Thanks for providing the translation for those of us not tech-savvy enough to sort it ourselves, BTW

 

[sunny jim]

I haven't noticed any automatic translation icon when using Mozilla Firefox, but then I don't claim to be the most IT aware, so it might be staring me in the face and I wouldn't notice it.

Thanks for providing the translation for those of us not tech-savvy enough to sort it ourselves, BTW

Lol! I'm the least tech savvy person ever, it must be just Chrome that has an automatic translation feature for foreign language text.

 

[J Ed]

If you mean both sides as in the old Soviet Union and the US, when did the SU use fascists to promote neo liberalism?

As an interesting aside, the USSR shipped coal to Franco's Spain during to break a miners' strike in Asturias as retaliation for the Spanish Communist Party's adoption of Eurocommunism.

 

[J Ed]

Elements of both sides frankly.

Yep, there have been lots of LDPR flags at pro-Russian rallies in Ukraine, strangely the Guardian finds itself able to identify these flags more easily than Svoboda or Banderist flags..

 

[DairyQueen]

Hmmm, because the Kyiv govt won't paint the "deserting" forces as "pro-Russian elements", go on about a "stab in the back", and engineer their own political perpetuation out of this. After all, there's no historical precedent, is there?

It will shore up some more votes for the right-wing, sure. But...

Kyiv may well be entirely happy with some short-term humiliation if it mobilises Ukrainian sentiment rightwards, and towards military "solutions".

... the only "military solution" is a complete annihilation of the Ukrainian military or Ukraine itself.

 

[sunny jim]

As an interesting aside, the USSR shipped coal to Franco's Spain during to break a miners' strike in Asturias as retaliation for the Spanish Communist Party's adoption of Eurocommunism.

Was this after the Spanish Civil War or do you mean previous to it, before the Republic government that Franco fought against? Genuine question, I didn't think strikes were allowed under Franco, especially in the first years of his power.

 

[sunny jim]

Nope, elements of one side are actual Hitler-fans.

The elements that are in control of the cops and the army. Defacto control of the country.

 

[J Ed]

Was this after the Spanish Civil War or do you mean previous to it, before the Republic government that Franco fought against? Genuine question, I didn't think strikes were allowed under Franco, especially in the first years of his power.

Well after, this is in the 60s. There was considerable labour unrest in Franco's Spain, including general strikes, despite it being illegal. The NUM in this country sent money to striking miners in Asturias on several occasions.

 

[Casually Red]

To an extent, yes. To an extent it is lucky we have NATO and the US to keep Russia in check. But there is a larger problem with a multi-polar world and that's the conflicts that will inevitably arise and the people caught up in those conflicts aren't just pawns for the great powers, or at least shouldn't be. I can perhaps understand nostalgia for the old Soviet Union but I can't understand nostalgia for the cold war.

, your not getting what Im saying . In a globalised world a cold war would be disastrous on all sides so I dont believe it will happen, or to be more correct theres a good chance it wont when there are alternatives to it. What Ive previously pointed to is how Kerrys direct appeals to Russia have emphasised the very things Russia has been saying all along . And that if the yanks and others are serious about not escalating any further then they need to go back and put their exceptionalism to bed and cease their aggression and interventions that went into overdrive after the Soviet Unions fall . And that a new set of rules , or to be bore precise the old set of rules need to be binding and adhered to . Theres a definite quid pro quo in the equation now . Theres consequences for NATO aggression and expansionsism .

Or the likes of McCain and co could win out and theres a cold war, with some hot bits

Theres also the issue too that NATO is an organisation that should no longer exist. Its a despicable organisation run by despicable people with a despicable role in world affairs. People accross the world should be in conflict with it . And if it turns out theres a new cold war then opposition to it will formalise and strengthen itself . Therell be a clearer programme for various axis to organise around . It might be a good thing .