Ukraine

[sunny jim]

Well after, this is in the 60s. There was considerable labour unrest in Franco's Spain, including general strikes, despite it being illegal. The NUM in this country sent money to striking miners in Asturias on several occasions.

Couldn't have been Stalin then he died before that.

 

[DairyQueen]

Or the likes of McCain and co could win out and theres a cold war, with some hot bits

People like McCain don't give a flying fuck about Ukrainians, Russians or Russia, they'll do whatever the fuck they want regardless. All this posturing/Cold War rhetoric means it is easier for them to justify defence expenditure they were going to spend anyway, more pictures of the armed forces doing our country proud on the BBC, and the Guardian explaining why in each proxy war we get involved in: "this time is different".

 

[Casually Red]

The elements that are in control of the cops and the army. Defacto control of the country.

tbh honest their overall control over them is a bit questionable . Whether they do or they dont the fact is they dont completely trust them, which is why they need this new National Guard force that they, in particular the fash, have been calling for since before they overthrew Yanuokovich. Fact is both their army and police are full of the very same ethnic groups and other opponents they have to crush . Despite the western narrative Ukraine is deeply polarised and these guys couldnt secure electoral victory.

According to this report on the take over of Belbek airbase there was a post on the airbases blog that makes some depressing reading . It certainly seems backed up by whats actually happened and other reports.

"We are being abandoned - most sadly by our own government,...The most dangerous enemy appeared to be our leadership and our government."

“Today I've found an interview with Acting Minister of Defense Tenyukh where he says he maintains contact with all troops on the territory of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, that all relevant orders were given and the situation is under control. There were only two orders – ‘remain in place’ and '[you are ] allowed to use weapons.' That’s it!”
What is expected [of us] in case of an assault?” the military asked. ”There were no clear answers given to us.”

http://rt.com/news/ukranian-troops-crimea-belbek-613/

so by the looks of it whatever it is they are doing with their military , or whats left of it, they arent controlling them

 

[Casually Red]

People like McCain don't give a flying fuck about Ukrainians, Russians or Russia, they'll do whatever the fuck they want regardless. All this posturing/Cold War rhetoric means it is easier for them to justify defence expenditure they were going to spend anyway, more pictures of the armed forces doing our country proud on the BBC, and the Guardian explaining why in each proxy war we get involved in: "this time is different".

like you said theyll do it regardless, even if Russia had just looked the other way in Ukraine . And like you said the likes of the Guardian arent going to dissuade them . In fact in Ukraine they never tried.

eta
As regards Ukraine the Guardian shamefully cheerlead a fascist coup and deliberately suppressed the evidence of its fascist nature

 

[Casually Red]

I personally don't agree with NATO, but a Cold War based on nationalism? No doubt our 'healthy patriotism' on the one hand, and Russian 'ultra nationalism' on the other. For the small chance some pan-Africans might receive a couple Kalashnikovs?

Kalshnikovs are ten a penny in Africa these days particularly after all those warehouses were looted. Pan Africanism is dead to all intents and purposes, NATO killed it at its source . It wasnt going to be built with weapons, it was going to be built with investment in self sustainability and a counter to the IMF . Thats gone now and barring some miracle in the Libyan desert wont be coming back in our lifetimes.

 

[DairyQueen]

Kalshnikovs are ten a penny in Africa these days particularly after all those warehouses were looted. Pan Africanism is dead to all intents and purposes, NATO killed it at its source . It wasnt going to be built with weapons, it was going to be built with investment in self sustainability and a counter to the IMF . Thats gone now and barring some miracle in the Libyan desert wont be coming back in our lifetimes.

I can understand the desire to see NATO/EU/Ukraine be given a bloody nose, I just don't see why you think a more assertive Russia will aid African/South American development or what will be the positives from this. The people that will suffer will be ordinary Ukrainians (particularly in the east) when they are cut off from Russia. That does not have very much to do with any grand theory.

A country like Libya or Russia are in a position to take a lead role in some global left-wing movement? Both were willing to do business with the West. Russia/Gaddaffi-types would, ideally, like to be left alone to bully its rivals and then turn a blind eye to westerners bullying theirs. Just expect business as usual, with more pictures of Cameron on shitty British-made tanks.

 

[Casually Red]

some reactions here from Ukraines neighbour and trading partner...for the time being.. Belarus. According to that the turnover in trade between the 2 amounts to 7 billion, not to be sniffed at .

http://rt.com/news/belarus-crimea-part-russia-657/

 

[Casually Red]

I can understand the desire to see NATO/EU/Ukraine be given a bloody nose, I just don't see why you think a more assertive Russia will aid African/South American development or what will be the positives from this. The people that will suffer will be ordinary Ukrainians (particularly in the east) when they are cut off from Russia. That does not have very much to do with any grand theory.

I can understand this whole 'pragmatic' leftie thinking, that a country like Libya or Russia are in a position to take a lead role in some global left-wing movement. But both were willing to do business with the West. Russia/Gaddaffi-types would, ideally, like to be left alone to bully its rivals and then turn a blind eye to westerners bullying theirs. Just expect business as usual, with more pictures of Cameron on shitty British-made tanks.

Africas gone, I cant make my views on that any clearer . Its fucked as far as I can see . And Russia does aid South American development, in the defence, economic , techonology and diplomatic sphere. All those countries, Libya, Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Syria..even Iran..they were all forming extensive links with one another with Russian support at their core.

Venezuela and Cuba were coming under increasing military pressure from George Bush, who had just reactivated the 4th fleet for the first time in 60 years and sent it into the Carribean in a show of gun boat diplomacy. With their aircraft making incursions and all sorts. Combined with continued calls for these states to be overthrown and all sorts of plots that cant be over looked.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-military-aggression-against-venezuela-escalating/16632?print=1

I was quite happy with Putins response to that within a matter of weeks

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7628899.stm

followed a few weeks later by nuclear capable bombers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7609577.stm

"I'm going to fly one of those beasts.....The Yankee hegemony is finished,"


then kalashnikov factories, all sorts of military equipment revamping the Venezuelan military.

And in other parts of the region Russia played a positive role that helps these states break out of domination and develop themselves according to their own interests.

http://rt.com/business/bolivia-morales-russia-energy-investments-599/

I could link to loads of stuff. But the point is Russia has been supportive of an alternative axis of opposition to western hegemony . And that axis has been under serious military threat from western aggression . Libya is gone, Venezuela and Syria hold on . But without Russian assistance and support its doubtful either could face down what theyre up against . Thats how the world works sadly .

And talk of doing business with the west is a complete red herring . Its a globalised world and everyone has to . Its not like some student arsehole boycotting nescafe . The point is to be able to do business on your own terms and not solely theirs. To break out of the post colonial model were your resources are theirs for the taking under their terms . To break their dominance over how you structure your own country . To have alternatives to their model . Russia assists countries with the means to do that . Im not suggesting its motives are altruistic, it acts in its own interests . But the fact is its assistance is real and the alternatives they provide are real . As is the defence and voice they give to threatened countries at the UN . Without a resurgent Russia these bastards would most likely have swept the board long ago .

eta
added extra link

 

[Knotted]

, your not getting what Im saying . In a globalised world a cold war would be disastrous on all sides so I dont believe it will happen, or to be more correct theres a good chance it wont when there are alternatives to it. What Ive previously pointed to is how Kerrys direct appeals to Russia have emphasised the very things Russia has been saying all along . And that if the yanks and others are serious about not escalating any further then they need to go back and put their exceptionalism to bed and cease their aggression and interventions that went into overdrive after the Soviet Unions fall . And that a new set of rules , or to be bore precise the old set of rules need to be binding and adhered to . Theres a definite quid pro quo in the equation now . Theres consequences for NATO aggression and expansionsism .

The civil war in Syria is in large part down to great power interests (and regional power interests eg. Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran). Its looking pretty hot down there. I'm sick of all of them treating whole nations like battlefields to fought over with proxy armies. Syria is what happens to countries of strategic interest.

If the Crimeans wants to be part of Russia then their choice should be respected, but don't forget Russia's great power interests and its manoeuvering and its geo-political and military interests. But if Russia loses an important naval base in Sevastapool I would be glad. And the economic model they offer Ukraine is little or no different from what the EU is offering. Different oligarchs pushing the same neo-liberal agenda. What's to choose between?

I'm not in the slightest interested in Russian whining about humiliation by NATO.

 

[tim]

Here's one CR seems to have missed from Russia Today. An endorsement for Putin from Ewald Stadler, the euro-MP . Still at least he's not a wishy-washy, (andpresumably self-hating) Slav Nazi. He's an Austrian Nazi, and surely no one can be no more Nazi than an Austrian Nazi!

 

[Casually Red]

Homophobes are cunts. Everywhere. And nobody on this entire board supports any fascists in Kiev. Not one single poster. It's pretty delusional to even claim that.

well no of course not , some instead have repeatedly indulged in the shitty cunts trick of repeatedly insisting the fascists they were openly cheering on werent fascists and ridiculing those who were pointing out they were fascists . Until the provided evidence they were fascists became overwhelming . And now they pop up insisting they werent supporting fascists afterall with a brass neck .

 

[Casually Red]

Here's one CR seems to have missed from Russia Today. An endorsement for Putin from Ewald Stadler, the euro-MP . Still at least he's not a wishy-washy, (andpresumably self-hating) Slav Nazi. He's an Austrian Nazi, and surely no one can be no more Nazi than an Austrian Nazi!

and heres Nicholas Maduro supporting him on the same issue

http://rt.com/news/venezuela-maduro-ukraine-crisis-921/

whats your point exactly ? Is Maduro a fascist as well ? In your 9 year old world view

 

[Casually Red]

The civil war in Syria is in large part down to great power interests (and regional power interests eg. Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran). Its looking pretty hot down there. I'm sick of all of them treating whole nations like battlefields to fought over with proxy armies. Syria is what happens to countries of strategic interest.

If the Crimeans wants to be part of Russia then their choice should be respected, but don't forget Russia's great power interests and its manoeuvering and its geo-political and military interests. But if Russia loses an important naval base in Sevastapool I would be glad. And the economic model they offer Ukraine is little or no different from what the EU is offering. Different oligarchs pushing the same neo-liberal agenda. What's to choose between?

I'm not in the slightest interested in Russian whining about humiliation by NATO.

I think your overlooking the missing bit of your jigsaw, which was the failure of the proxies to acheive their objectives, followed by direct NATO intervention that Putin played a major role in scuppering. There was quite a discussion about it on here . NATO military interventon would have made it a lot different to a civil war .

Russia isnt going to lose any bases in Sevastopol . Its back in Russia now.

 

[Casually Red]

Not exactly a conspiracy this. The US Embassy in Ukraine openly boasts of USAID pumping $1.8bn into the country for "democracy promotion" over the last 20 years.

(ETA: Huffington Post article on where the money is going)

while Nuland herself boasted of 5 billion. USAID was just one part of that . Theres been a number of other US agencies pumping their funds in .

The issue of Gladio and stay behind groups isnt any big secret and has been going on for a very long time. We can assume that was the reasoning behind Britians decision to offer sanctuary to the Galician Waffen SS division and why theyve sheilded those 8000 odd Ukrainian fash scum on the Rimini list ever since . And why Bandera and others were being sheilded by west Germany. Along with the Ustase . Whos links came in very handy when they sought regime change in Yugoslavia.

 

[DairyQueen]

And talk of doing business with the west is a complete red herring . Its a globalised world and everyone has to . Its not like some student arsehole boycotting nescafe . The point is to be able to do business on your own terms and not solely theirs. To break out of the post colonial model were your resources are theirs for the taking under their terms . To break their dominance over how you structure your own country . To have alternatives to their model . Russia assists countries with the means to do that . Im not suggesting its motives are altruistic, it acts in its own interests . But the fact is its assistance is real and the alternatives they provide are real . As is the defence and voice they give to threatened countries at the UN . Without a resurgent Russia these bastards would most likely have swept the board long ago .

To be fair a student arsehole boycotting nescafe is probably making a bigger stand than a Russian government.

"Russian-style capitalism" (or just Russians) will just become the cause of capitalism's failures: the cause of grinding poverty, financial collapse, economic incompetence, and general neoliberal fuckups.

 

[tim]

Russia isnt going to lose any bases in Sevastopol . Its back in Russia now.

Ah yes, It's Putin's "Judea and Samaria".

 

[Casually Red]

Complaints about the NATO campaign by Putin do not disguise the fact that Russia did not veto the Libya stuff at the UN. And it would be laughable to suggest that Russia was surprised at what form the action ended up taking. They know very well, for example, that a no-fly zone means a 'we bomb zone'.

Like many other nations they had economic ties to Gaddafi, reasons to wish he remained in power existed for Russia. But they also failed to give his regime their unconditional support, Gaddafi apparently wasn't worth their veto at the UN. There was a lot of ambivalence in their stance, and the angry words of Putin were little more than the sorts of 'pious noises off' the west makes when having no real intention of seriously thwarting Russian actions.

Putin wasnt in power at the time. His mate was. Medvedev was up Obamas hole thinking there was a real post Bush sea change in the USA and believing the hype. While Putin was arguing there was no change, something hes consistently argued . It resulted in the only ever public spat between the 2 men .
On Thursday, acting on instructions from Medvedev, Russia abstained from the U.N. Security Council resolution imposing a no-fly zone over Libya but did not veto it, something that Putin obviously thought should have happened.

Medvedev has developed a close working relationship with President Barack Obama but Putin has a prickly relationship with Washington. At the factory Monday, Putin took aim not only at Medvedev's refusal to use his veto, but at the U.S. leadership:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/03/21/russia.leaders.libya/index.html

they had more than an econmic relationship . Russia had naval assets there . It left them overly dependent upon Tartus. Which was next on the list .

 

[DairyQueen]

Ah yes, It's Putin's "Judea and Samaria".

As opposed to an "integral part of the Ukrainian nation"?

Not sure if this was posted - but the "Russian threat to capitalism" claim has already been made, with no hint of irony, by Hank Paulson.

 

[Fuchs66]

2) The firing systems for their Claymore-equivalents are home-made. I'm sure Fuchs will correct me if I'm wrong, but the anti-personnel mines themselves look Yugo/post-Yugo.

The "Claymore" type mines actually look (going by the charge size and concave front surface) more like off-route anti-vehicle mines, not sure of the type though so can't guarantee that.

The scatterable AP mines are Russian PFM-1.

One further point the light anti-armour weapon looks like an RPG28 and it is as far as I know only used by Russian forces.

So basically your suppositions about the weapons are what I like to call "complete bollocks".

I have to agree on that!

 

[sunny jim]

The "Claymore" type mines actually look (going by the charge size and concave front surface) more like off-route anti-vehicle mines, not sure of the type though so can't guarantee that.

The scatterable AP mines are Russian PFM-1.

One further point the light anti-armour weapon looks like an RPG28 and it is as far as I know only used by Russian forces.


I have to agree on that!

What, so a black ops mission wouldn't buy any weapons from different sources rather than get them straight from NATO?

 

[Fuchs66]

whats your point exactly ? Is Maduro a fascist as well ? In your 9 year old world view

Says the guy who can ID fascists by their haircuts

 

[Fuchs66]

What, so a black ops mission wouldn't buy any weapons from different sources rather than get them straight from NATO?

I merely identified the weapons, but tbh if what I mentioned about the RPG 28 is correct, sourcing them would be rather tricky. Still goes against what was stated before that the weapons used are NATO issue as VP has pointed out. ViolentPanda

 

[Casually Red]

I have to agree on that!

Who uses and manufactures Gimpys ? theres 3 of them in those pics. Virtually all the firearms are of western manufacture .

 

[tim]

and heres Nicholas Maduro supporting him on the same issue

http://rt.com/news/venezuela-maduro-ukraine-crisis-921/

whats your point exactly ? Is Maduro a fascist as well ? In your 9 year old world view

No Maduro's a second rate populist whose heart's probably in the right place


My point is that Stadler is and RT give him space because he backs Putin. Since you've been bouncing around this thread denouncing the fascism of the Ukrainian side, I find it odd that you don't have a problem with the Putinistas taking pride in having their own Nazi supporters. As for my world view, well it's clearly more cynical and less Manichean than yours. It would be so much easier to go through life like you and John Wayne believing that one could find good guys to back and bad guys to hate.

 

[Casually Red]

but hey, lets just sound clever spouting gun porn and ignore the dirty big USA and Union jack flags taking centre stage in the fash bunker during the middle of a fash bomb making class . Theres no link to the US and Britian there at all, no sireebob . None in the slightest . Its just a flag enthusiast, doing what flag enthusiasts do .

 

[Casually Red]

No Maduro's a second rate



No Maduro isn't a fascist. My point is that Stadler is and RT give him space because he backs Putin. Since you've been bouncing around this thread denouncing the fascism of the Ukrainian side, I find it odd that you don't have a problem with the Putinistas taking pride in having their own Nazi supporters. As for my world view, well it's clearly more cynical and less Manichean than yours. It would be so much easier to go through life like you and John Wayne believing that one could find good guys to back and bad guys to hate.

its a world view where you end up, like so many Brit lefties including the Guardian, coming down on the side of the usual cabal of nazis, NATO and jihadists. Regardless of all the convulsions, convolutions and other hoops you have to jump through in order to get there. Heard it all before .

and you cant even post right. Whatever your slagging off of Maduro entails its just more of the same ending up on the same side.

 

[Fuchs66]

Who uses and manufactures Gimpys ? theres 3 of them in those pics. Virtually all the firearms are of western manufacture .

FN MAGs you mean?

If so then, Manufacturing countries:
Argentina
Belgium
China (made with wooden butt as in the photos)
Egypt
Sweden
Indonesia
UK
Singapore
and several more

The list of countries who use this type of machine gun is much longer, it's not exactly a rarity.

Your point being?

 

[Fuchs66]

but hey, lets just sound clever spouting gun porn and ignore the dirty big USA and Union jack flags taking centre stage in the fash bunker during the middle of a fash bomb making class . Theres no link to the US and Britian there at all, no sireebob . None in the slightest . Its just a flag enthusiast, doing what flag enthusiasts do .

Just stating the facts, sorry if they disagree with your point of view.

I have no idea why this particular group (I also have no idea who this particular group is) would want those flags, but then again neither have you!

 

[tim]

but hey, lets just sound clever spouting gun porn and ignore the dirty big USA and Union jack flags taking centre stage in the fash bunker during the middle of a fash bomb making class . Theres no link to the US and Britian there at all, no sireebob . None in the slightest . Its just a flag enthusiast, doing what flag enthusiasts do .

People do like a nice flag though, don't they? I'm mean Hawaii was never part of the British Empire but that didn't stop the Kingdom of Hawaii flying this

And they liked it so much that they continued to use it even after the US got Steve Mcgarret, their fascist stooge, to turn it into Five-0.

Likewise, Alexandr Duggin the Eurasian ideologue with close links to and influence upon the Kremlin and the Russian military command was a leading member of the National Bolshevik movement whose supporters and flag are shown below.

Again , surely just modelling ones flag on a stylish 1930's one doesn't mean that you share that 1930's point of view, does it?

 

[Casually Red]

FN MAGs you mean?

If so then, Manufacturing countries:
Argentina
Belgium
China (made with wooden butt as in the photos)
Egypt
Sweden
Indonesia
UK
Singapore
and several more

The list of countries who use this type of machine gun is much longer, it's not exactly a rarity.

Your point being?

my point being that most definitely NATO countries both use and manufacture them, as well as all the other automatic weapons they were training with . And that both yourself and the other chuckle brother there are arguing about angels on the head of pin in order to sound clever to the rest of the class .

Ive never stated definitively it was a NATO sponsored camp . Ive stated the weapons seem to be of NATO origin . Gimpys in particular dont grow on trees and singapore is a long way from Estonia . Theres no Singapore flag or Indonesian flag in the centre of the fash insurgency class . The flags of the 2 main NATO countries are however quite prominent among a series of weapons manufactured by NATO aligned countries. In a country were one would expect the ubiquitous AKM would be a lot more readily sourced . And ultimately its NATO countries which have a great deal moreinterest in destabilising former warsaw pact states than Indonesia or fucking Argentina . Whose flags arent front and centre . Unlike 2 particular countries that dont need mentioning again .