Ukraine

[littlebabyjesus]

Somewhere in all that gloom, is a chance that the nationalists will find themselves unable to deliver any meaningful economic or political policies that improve anyones lives at all except the super rich and then maybe some kind of progressive alliance will emerge to challenge the western nationalist coup govt but I'm not holding my breath at the moment.

Yanukovych was rotten, too, though. One set of gangster oligarchs has overthrown another. I'm not defending the coup, but both sides are pretty shit options atm.

 

[8ball]

All of these worlds are yours except Europa...

 

[thriller]

coward. the type that puts flowers in riffles. No more appeasement of Russia. They can take Crimea and that. is. it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well I did say Ukraine has to let Crimea go. I was referring to the eastern parts of the country. No negotiations must be even considered there.

Why not? First act of the new govt was to cancel the law making Russian an official language. So they are simply to passively accept marginalisation such as this?

What is your view of the post-coup govt? Where does its legitimacy come from?

 

[co-op]

Yanukovych was rotten, too, though. One set of gangster oligarchs has overthrown another. I'm not defending the coup, but both sides are pretty shit options atm.

Of course he was, and also an incompetent idiot as it turns out. Considering that he's pretty good at the international-level powerbroker stuff, it's interesting how poor Putin's skills are at influencing internal political events in another country, almost like he's an undemocratic, authoritarian wanker with no idea how the majority of people might react.

But I wasn't defending Yanukovich but challenging the anti-CR gigglers, they haven't come up with anything better than supporting the new regime as far as I have seen.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But I wasn't defending Yanukovich but challenging the anti-CR gigglers, they haven't come up with anything better than supporting the new regime as far as I have seen.

Fair enough. I'm not one of those. I have sympathy for a lot of what CR has said - even though I think he is far too uncritical of the Russian position. Personally, I find it hard to be optimistic and come up with good suggestions. The situation is grim, and a pluralistic, inclusive Ukraine (which imo is the answer) looks remote.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unlike the genuine & eminently fair "referendum" Putin staged while occupying the place with masked heavily armed "self defense militias" wearing unmarked uniforms to legitimize his invasion & annexation of Crimea......a little more lebensraum for mother Russia.

A better comparison than with the Nazis would be with imperial Japan.

 

[thriller]

Why not? First act of the new govt was to cancel the law making Russian an official language. So they are simply to passively accept marginalisation such as this?

What is your view of the post-coup govt? Where does its legitimacy come from?

why should Russia be an official language? You came on mass to Ukraine during occupation and now acting like spoilt brats demanding concessions? You live in Ukraine you have to accept Ukrainian as your official language.

As for the "coup", this was a Russian stooge taking Ukraine towards Russia without any consent from Ukrainians.

 

[co-op]

As for the "coup", this was a Russian stooge taking Ukraine towards Russia without any consent from Ukrainians.

He was elected you wally.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

why should Russia be an official language? You came on mass to Ukraine during occupation and now acting like spoilt brats demanding concessions? You live in Ukraine you have to accept Ukrainian as your official language.

As for the "coup", this was a Russian stooge taking Ukraine towards Russia without any consent from Ukrainians.

You're historically incorrect here. The ethnic-Russian presence in Ukraine dates back hundreds of years. You do know that Ukraine was part of the Russain empire pre-Revolution?

 

[ViolentPanda]

coward. the type that puts flowers in riffles. No more appeasement of Russia. They can take Crimea and that. is. it.

Loving it. thriller, who's probably never served in a military in his life, calling people cowards and insinuating they're hippies. Issuing diktat that may change the lives of hundreds of thousands of people for the worse.
What a worthless two-bob cunt he is.

 

[CNT36]

Is Putin's primary motive in this to protect ethnic Russian from the new regime or to protect its Black Sea fleet? It seems that before the Russians went in that seemed to be discussed a lot as a major factor in Russian actions. Now since Putin made his move and ever since the referendum was on the cards the ethnic Russians have been the focus. Obviously the views of the people who live in Crimea are important but a lot of the coverage seems to suggest that they are Putin's motivation. I guess it makes it easier to paint him as Hitler with all the Sudetenland comparisons.

 

[thriller]

He was elected you wally.

Yes, and we elected Blair to take us to war in Iraq. Twat. Please find anywhere in his election pledge the promise to take Ukraine towards Mother Russia? Yes, I'm sure the Ukrainians voted for that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, and we elected Blair to take us to war in Iraq. Twat. Please find anywhere in his election pledge the promise to take Ukraine towards Mother Russia? Yes, I'm sure the Ukrainians voted for that.

In what way did Yanukovych 'take Ukraine towards Mother Russia'?

 

[co-op]

Yes, and we elected Blair to take us to war in Iraq. Twat. Please find anywhere in his election pledge the promise to take Ukraine towards Mother Russia? Yes, I'm sure the Ukrainians voted for that.

Not sure if you've quite got a handle on the Ukraine situation yet. Enjoy the thread.

 

[ViolentPanda]

why should Russia be an official language? You came on mass to Ukraine during occupation and now acting like spoilt brats demanding concessions? You live in Ukraine you have to accept Ukrainian as your official language.

Even a majority of Ukrainians accept that Russian is there to stay, as a language, and given the similarities between Ukrainian and Russian, hardly surprising.
By the way, Russian and Ukrainian have been spoken in parallel in Ukraine for over 400 years, as has Polish and (to a more limited extent) Yiddish and Lithuanian.

You're a bit ignorant, aren't you?

As for the "coup", this was a Russian stooge taking Ukraine towards Russia without any consent from Ukrainians.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're historically incorrect here. The ethnic-Russian presence in Ukraine dates back hundreds of years. You do know that Ukraine was part of the Russain empire pre-Revolution?

Before which it was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and various other imperial appurtenances.

 

[thriller]

keep on appeasing Russia. Let's see were they stop next. Believe me they won't stop. The Baltic states will be next.

 

[Belushi]

And before that it was Russia, before Russia was Russia.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In what way did Yanukovych 'take Ukraine towards Mother Russia'?

I think that thriller is confusing Yanukovich's rebuffing of the EU deal with actual foreign policy, rather than a manifestation of his own self-interest, and the interests of his fellow oligarchs.

 

[likesfish]

Ukraines a corruptshithole with putain and the black sea fleet in a leased port of course vlad is going to want the crimea back and theres fuck all anyone can do.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And before that it was Russia, before Russia was Russia.

Ah yes, the "Kievan Rus", or "those Scandinavian fucks" as I like to think of them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ukraines a corruptshithole with putain and the black sea fleet in a leased port of course vlad is going to want the crimea back and theres fuck all anyone can do.

Of course it's corrupt! Everywhere is corrupt to some degree, but in states where democracy is on short supply, corruption is often the only way that state structures actually function. it's horrible, but if your president and his cronies are siphoning off money that should be paying teachers and soldiers and doctors, then that corruption is pretty much forced on those below the oligarchs, because it's the only way to put salo on the table.

 

[thriller]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26659578

Crimea crisis: Merkel warns Russia faces escalating sanctions

 

[J Ed]

keep on appeasing Russia. Let's see were they stop next. Believe me they won't stop. The Baltic states will be next.

yes because Hitl- Putin is going to invade EU and NATO members.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think that thriller is confusing Yanukovich's rebuffing of the EU deal with actual foreign policy, rather than a manifestation of his own self-interest, and the interests of his fellow oligarchs.

One good thing he did do was to resist the IMF-proposed austerity.

 

[Dillinger4]

Another warning. How many is that now? I've lost count.

sanctions and asset freezes are impossible and will never ever happen in any real meaningful way.

 

[ViolentPanda]

One good thing he did do was to resist the IMF-proposed austerity.

Although given his robber-baron status, we can be fairly sure that the good it did for Ukraine was incidental to avoiding having his corruption exposed, or his income shrunk.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Although given his robber-baron status, we can be fairly sure that the good it did for Ukraine was incidental to avoiding having his corruption exposed, or his income shrunk.

Certainly. But I pity Ukrainians if the IMF's proposals are accepted now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Another warning. How many is that now? I've lost count.

sanctions and asset freezes are impossible and will never ever happen in any real meaningful way.

Yep. It's interesting how the rhetoric from the West has included a load of stuff that they know they're not going to do.