Ukraine

[Johnny Canuck3]

That would be to overestimate this board's importance. We might like to think we're like this:

Spoiler

But let's face it, we're more like this:

Spoiler

I don't know what is important to whom.

So far as this site goes - journalists frequent it; stories have arisen from it. Arguably it swings above its weight, influence-wise. Hearts and minds are won in the oddest of places.

 

[rekil]

Casually red, yesterday

Spoiler

 

[Idris2002]

I don't know what is important to whom.

So far as this site goes - journalists frequent it; stories have arisen from it. Arguably it swings above its weight, influence-wise. Hearts and minds are won in the oddest of places.

Spoiler

On a more serious note, a Finnish-based academic with a Russian name has posted this set of 'five theses on the Ukrainian revolution':

http://criticallegalthinking.com/2014/03/20/five-theses-aftermath-ukrainian-revolution/

I have to say I think it's almost a mirror image of the simplistic analysis that Casually Red is delighting us all with. I'm especially sceptical of his claim that Putin's real fear is that a successful Ukraine colour revo will inspire similar movements in Russia. I just can't see that happening, if for no other reason than that the politics at the heart of any empire are very different from those on the periphery.

The forces ("Other Russia") that might play the role of a neat and clean and civilised pro-western colour revolution in Russia do exist, but I can't see them getting any traction beyond certain sectors of the intelligentsia and middle-classes. seventh bullet, what do you think?

 

[nino_savatte]

Google them.

The Chinese did something a little similar to what happened in the USSR, informed by Soviet nationalities policy, although no republics.

Yes but the arrangement was rather different in the case of Crimea and Ukraine. No? When the USSR was dissolved and the various SSRs became nominally independent, the Russians negotiated a deal with Ukraine over Crimea that resulted in the formation of an autonomous republic within the state of Ukraine. I'm aware of the nationalities policy. The Jewish Autonomous Oblast, for example, was created under that policy.

 

[TomUS]

fuck off with your fascist elections .

Unlike the genuine & eminently fair "referendum" Putin staged while occupying the place with masked heavily armed "self defense militias" wearing unmarked uniforms to legitimize his invasion & annexation of Crimea......a little more lebensraum for mother Russia.

 

[J Ed]

Unlike the genuine & eminently fair "referendum" Putin staged while occupying the place with masked heavily armed "self defense militias" wearing unmarked uniforms to legitimize his invasion & annexation of Crimea......a little more lebensraum for mother Russia.

Can you seriously think of no other examples of countries that you reckon are a bit naughty other than Nazi Germany? Do you think that there might be a few reasons why using this particular example and especially the word lebensraum might be a problem?

 

[seventh bullet]

Yes but the arrangement was rather different in the case of Crimea and Ukraine. No? When the USSR was dissolved and the various SSRs became nominally independent, the Russians negotiated a deal with Ukraine over Crimea that resulted in the formation of an autonomous republic within the state of Ukraine. I'm aware of the nationalities policy. The Jewish Autonomous Oblast, for example, was created under that policy.

I don't know the specific conditions of Crimea's status, aside from the administrative experience of the USSR (and the republics within the RSFSR, not the large union republics), and Russia's interest in naval access. When I noticed you edited your post yesterday, it was the original that prompted me to mention the similar thinking that went on in the People's Republic of China (when the Chinese Communists still followed the Soviet Union's lead). And the impression given by your other posts was that you didn't know much about Stalinist nationalities policy (read my responses to co-op a few pages back to see what I'm on about) until told so by Spanky and myself, so apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick.

The forces ("Other Russia") that might play the role of a neat and clean and civilised pro-western colour revolution in Russia do exist, but I can't see them getting any traction beyond certain sectors of the intelligentsia and middle-classes. seventh bullet, what do you think?

In terms of the western-oriented liberals who occupy it, and beyond the intelligentsia (is it still premature to say that Russia has a middle class as we might understand it in western Europe?), opposition has little chance of large popular support. It's not good to plaster your own ideas of western liberal democracy onto Russia anyway, even when it comes to Russian 'liberals.'

 

[TomUS]

Can you seriously think of no other examples of countries that you reckon are a bit naughty other than Nazi Germany? Do you think that there might be a few reasons why using this particular example and especially the word lebensraum might be a problem?

Yes & no.

 

[J Ed]

Yes & no.

Jesus

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...hief-pro-russian-miroshnichenko-panteleymonov
has this been posted yet?

it's very worrying

Ukraine's new government was facing a stern test of resolve after a nationalist Ukrainian MP physically assaulted the head of a television station in Kiev and forced him to write a resignation letter.
A group of at least five men, including MP Igor Miroshnichenko from the nationalist Svoboda party, barged into Oleksandr Panteleymonov's office, then shouted at him and landed blows before forcing him to write the letter. They filmed the attack and posted it online. The video has received hundreds of thousands of hits.

 

[rekil]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...hief-pro-russian-miroshnichenko-panteleymonov
has this been posted yet?

it's very worrying

That's the one who was nasty about Mila Kunis. What is it with ponytailed blokes and fascism.

 

[Kesher]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...hief-pro-russian-miroshnichenko-panteleymonov
has this been posted yet?

it's very worrying

Saw it first on Russia Today (yesterday). I didn't think the BBC would show it; but eventually did. The West's Frankenstein is getting harder to control

 

[co-op]

(ps. "Junta" means a military-run government doesn't it? Which is not what Ukraine has atm is it?)

Junta is Spanish for a Board (as in Board of Directors) or a Council, got associated with right-wing military dictatorship via the Pinochet regime which initially called itself a Junta.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So turns out Casually Red was KGB all along?

That's "FSB" in the bright post-Soviet world.

 

[frogwoman]

except in pridnestrovie where they've still kept the old name

 

[thriller]

Ukraine has to let Crimea go. Pull out. But there must be no negogiations or tolerance of Russian desires on any further Ukrainian territories. If there is there has to be 100% blanket sanctions on Russia. Everybody from top down must have their assets frozen.

 

[Dillinger4]

Ukraine has to let Crimea go. Pull out. But there must be no negogiations or tolerance of Russian desires on any further Ukrainian territories. If there is there has to be 100% blanket sanctions on Russia. Everybody from top down must have their assets frozen.

That will never happen.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ukraine has to let Crimea go. Pull out. But there must be no negogiations or tolerance of Russian desires on any further Ukrainian territories. If there is there has to be 100% blanket sanctions on Russia. Everybody from top down must have their assets frozen.

Did you call for similar action against the UK/US and others when they invaded Afghanistan or Iraq? How about the US invasion of Grenada back in the 80s?

Then there's the question of self-determination, no? If another province of Ukraine contains a majority who wish to join Russia, why should their wishes be trumped by the wishes of those in other regions?

 

[thriller]

It must. We have to hold steadfast against this aggressive annexation. Where will these Russkies stop? Next they will be targeting Latvia, Estonia, Poland.

 

[8ball]

Brighton...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Brighton...

Scuttle the pier now, just in case. It could act as a landing platform for the invasion force.

 

[8ball]

Scuttle the pier now, just in case. It could act as a landing platform for the invasion force.

Pier? I thought they'd started building a bridge.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It must. We have to hold steadfast against this aggressive annexation. Where will these Russkies stop? Next they will be targeting Latvia, Estonia, Poland.

What's this 'we'?

 

[co-op]

Got to say that CR might go over the top in his anti-western worldview (imo) but he hasn't gone as far as the "let's include the nazis in a govt of national unity" line which I've seen anarchists on here openly (and incontestedly) argue for. Most seem to be too busy slagging off Russia as if they are still fighting old anarchist/trot battles with the USSR.

This whole thread contains tons of data supporting the idea that there is a significant far-right - and we are talking openly Nazi far right - element in the street level activities that overthrew Yanukovich and now in the new Kiev regime and that it is that element that is setting the political agenda in Kiev and the Western Ukraine. So far the CR analysis is ahead of any alternatives I've seen on here, as are (imo) his predictions for just how shitty things are going to get for the eastern Ukraine once EU/IMF re-structuring programmes get under way.

Somewhere in all that gloom, is a chance that the nationalists will find themselves unable to deliver any meaningful economic or political policies that improve anyones lives at all except the super rich and then maybe some kind of progressive alliance will emerge to challenge the western nationalist coup govt but I'm not holding my breath at the moment.

 

[thriller]

Then there's the question of self-determination, no? If another province of Ukraine contains a majority who wish to join Russia, why should their wishes be trumped by the wishes of those in other regions?

And where did this majority come from? Are they native to Ukraine or ethnic Russians who moved there during Soviet occupation? These Russians are playing the same card the Chinese have played in Tibet and that Muslim provence in China. Annex and then encourage ethnic Hans to move in. It's then simple to play the we are being oppressed card. Well assholes, you were never native to the country in the first place.

 

[Belushi]

That's "FSB" in the bright post-Soviet world.

Not to CR, he's been a sleeper in rural Ireland since 1974. Like one of those Japanese soldiers that stayed in the jungle for 35 years

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And where did this majority come from? Are they native to Ukraine or ethnic Russians who moved there during Soviet occupation? These Russians are playing the same card the Chinese have played in Tibet and that Muslim provence in China. Annex and then encourage ethnic Hans to move in. It's then simple to play the we are being oppressed card. Well assholes, you were never native to the country in the first place.

They're native to Crimea.

You might have something of an argument there with other regions, but not Crimea.

 

[co-op]

And where did this majority come from? Are they native to Ukraine or ethnic Russians who moved there during Soviet occupation? These Russians are playing the same card the Chinese have played in Tibet and that Muslim provence in China. Annex and then encourage ethnic Hans to move in. It's then simple to play the we are being oppressed card. Well assholes, you were never native to the country in the first place.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Spoiler

Camper than a Scouting jamboree!

 

[thriller]

They're native to Crimea.

You might have something of an argument there with other regions, but not Crimea.

Well I did say Ukraine has to let Crimea go. I was referring to the eastern parts of the country. No negotiations must be even considered there.