Ukraine

[camouflage]

Just have to hope the diplomats are working well. It's not as if the West actually gives a shit about Crimea. Its population almost certainly does have a majority that wants to be in Russia now that the coup in Ukraine has overthrown the man most Crimeans voted for. Opposing the annexation is not about defending democracy, nor defending self-determination. In private, they must surely be advising Kiev that this particular battle is already lost.

I'm with co-op on this, too. Why, exactly, has the West suddenly decided to focus on what Putin is doing at the non-EU/NATO fringes of the former SU? They've never given a shit before.

I understand that the Russians have suggested the way forward for Ukraine might be Federalist and neutral in terms of military alliance with NATO.

 

[nino_savatte]

i've been pointing this out - Crimea was never fully controlled by Ukraine anyway.

However what the Russian state has done is still very, very worrying to say the least

I think I'm more worried about the itchy trigger fingers of NATO... er, US generals than anything else. I'd still like to know what McCain was up to in Ukraine and what kind of assurances he made to Svoboda.

 

[Idris2002]

I'd still like to know what McCain was up to in Ukraine

Queering the pitch for Obama, most likely.

 

[camouflage]

Queering the pitch for Obama, most likely.

And taking selfies with fascists because there are no jihadists to be had.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think I'm more worried about the itchy trigger fingers of NATO... er, US generals than anything else. I'd still like to know what McCain was up to in Ukraine and what kind of assurances he made to Svoboda.

In these stand-offs, whether with the Soviet Union, Iran or Russia, it is always the US I'm most worried about. Except perhaps North Korea - perhaps North Korea is madder than the US.

 

[8ball]

In these stand-offs, whether with the Soviet Union, Iran or Russia, it is always the US I'm most worried about. Except perhaps North Korea - perhaps North Korea is madder than the US.

Perhaps...

 

[camouflage]

In these stand-offs, whether with the Soviet Union, Iran or Russia, it is always the US I'm most worried about. Except perhaps North Korea - perhaps North Korea is madder than the US.

The US does/used to put great store by that whole CrAzy mAn! approach.... (don't fuck with me man *twitch* noBody knOws what I might suDDenly Bust out an DO! *twitch twitch*

but arguably, that was back when the US leadership actually seemed to know what they were doing (even if evil-doing). I don't think the US leadership knows what it's doing anymore, they seem to just trot along getting high off their own farts for the most part, actually believing their own bullshit! Anyone who genuinely believes that business acumen is the best skill to run a country has lost the plot long ago.

Now, I personally have resorted to the line that at least Putin seems to actually know what the fuck he's doing, authoritarian - yes, brutal, ex-KGB- yes, but at least a master of the game of Real-Politik with 'Russian interests' as an objective. I don't think anyone in Russia thinks 'Russian interests' involve any sort of war or getting bogged down in yet another occupation. I think that's the point, Russia benefits right now from peace, trade, stability and (at last finally) some proper inward investment in infrastructure etc. I thiink that would be Putins objective (all of which is just my opinion of course).

But if so... think the Strangelove Gang, how can we interrupt this threatening development?

 

[butchersapron]

Has anyone seen this badly written lunacy from the Labour Representation Committee yet?

http://l-r-c.org.uk/blog/post/russia-is-not-imperialist/

That letter is from an actual real-life, no-messing posadist. In the labour party.

 

[frogwoman]

apparently...

The Ukrainian (not Russian) text below reads: "Representatives of "Svoboda" force Panteleimon to resign - Members of "Svoboda" force acting NTV (National TV?) President Alexander Panteleimon to resign. As the argument takes place "Svoboda" MP, Igor Miroshnichenko calls the head of NTV "Moskaluk" ['Russkie lover' - this is a racist insult] and blamed his constant lies on the channel Maidan Square."

 

[articul8]

Has anyone seen this badly written lunacy from the Labour Representation Committee yet?

http://l-r-c.org.uk/blog/post/russia-is-not-imperialist/

That is a blog post - it is not an expression of LRC opinion. This is a statement with the organisation's support:
http://l-r-c.org.uk/news/story/ukraine-no-russian-tanks-or-western-banks/

 

[butchersapron]

That is a blog post - it is not an expression of LRC opinion. This is a statement with the organisation's support:
http://l-r-c.org.uk/news/story/ukraine-no-russian-tanks-or-western-banks/

It's an expression of the opinion of the posadist wing of the lrc.

 

[articul8]

one person

 

[butchersapron]

one person

How do you know what forces she might represent?

 

[articul8]

I've a pretty good idea

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Are you so historically illiterate that you can only think in terms of WW2?

The Russian diaspora has spread the Russian language across the globe. You can find substantial Russian and Russian-speaking communities in places like Belarus, Germany and Mongolia, as well as Israel and Brooklyn’s Brighton Beach.

While a Russian invasion of New York is fairly unlikely, and you probably won’t see Russian Spetsnaz commandos storming into Tel Aviv anytime soon, both Israel and New York City have communities that are full of Russian speakers. In fact, Israel has one of the largest Russian-speaking populations outside of Russia. After the U.S.S.R. disintegrated, more than a million Russians with Jewish backgrounds packed their bags and headed to Israel. And if you’ve ever spent any time at Brighton Beach, you know English isn’t the language of choice for many of this neighborhood’s vodka-loving inhabitants.

Thankfully, Russian speakers in Israel and New York aren’t calling for Russian military intervention just yet. Well, I hope that’s the case. You always have to be careful when dealing with deceptive geopolitical moves and the conquest of valuable real estate.

Returning to the realm of plausible eventualities, some of Russia’s immediate neighbors are nervous for good reason. Poland is especially on edge, thanks to the nation’s history with Russian invasion and occupation, and the exceptionally unpopular Soviet policy of Russification toward countries bordering Russia’s western flank.

While nations like Lithuania and Poland have relatively small Russian-speaking minorities, countries like Belarus and Estonia have some good-sized Russian populations to contend with. If the Russian Federation were so inclined, not only could it branch out into other parts of the Ukraine, like Donetsk and Luhansk, it could also exploit the guise of protecting Russian nationals from harm to further foreign policy goals along its very large borders, and counter Western European and American hegemony. It worked in Georgia with the partition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia — and it appears to be working in Crimea as well.

http://theblot.com/else-can-russia-invade-protect-natives-7716756

 

[frogwoman]

the intergalactic working class

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What a load of nonsense. There is a Russian diaspora. Hence, um, Russia's going to invade left right and centre.

It's this kind of crap that stops places like Latvia and Ukraine from coming to terms with the fact that they are not monocultural places.

You recognise, eg language rights, in such places not because of a perceived threat from Russia, but because it is the right thing to do for yourselves and your country. You would do it even if Russia did not exist.

 

[Fuchs66]

More russian backed with some Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe input.

If the un had been involved there wouldnt have been any russian peackeepers involved and the geogians would have taken the town

The Russian "peacekeepers" were a bilateral deal between Russia and the 2 break away regions, the OSCE had an observer mission and the UN had an observer mission in Abkhasia (that was stopped by the Russians blocking the extension of its mandate).

My point is that no "peacekeepers operating under a UN mandate were attacked, and that CR was bullshitting as usual.

 

[hipipol]

As a sort of aside we seem to trade with Israel and China both of whom have invaded and annexed other countries (or bits of em) without the sight of a frothy mouthed Cameron chucking his toys out the pram
The really galling thing for the "West" is that they were completely outfoxed by a man they regard as some kind of throwback, Putin
Whatever else you may want to say about Vlad the Annexor this action has been really slick and not a single tank has fired at anything

 

[J Ed]

http://theblot.com/else-can-russia-invade-protect-natives-7716756

A Russian diaspora exists. Well done.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A Russian diaspora exists. Well done.

And in Brighton. Or Moscow-by-sea as we all now call it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There was little mention of the way the new Crimean government was formed in the wake of Kyiv's revolution — without Ukrainian participation; the absence of debate prior to the referendum vote in Crimea's parliament; the apparent barring of a Tatar Muslim member from voting on the referendum bill; and the fact that two Ukrainian television networks were unplugged on Crimean television, while a Russian station was added, leading up to the vote.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/why-vl...e-the-end-of-russia-s-ukraine-blitz-1.2577873

 

[TomUS]

I think I'm more worried about the itchy trigger fingers of NATO... er, US generals than anything else. I'd still like to know what McCain was up to in Ukraine and what kind of assurances he made to Svoboda.

I'm not worried about NATO/US military action yet. McCain is not President thank god. If Putin starts taking more bites out of Ukraine or other former Soviet colonies to "protect Russian populations" then severe economic sanctions & possibly military moves can be expected.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

People seem to forget (or ignore) the fact that Crimea was an autonomous republic within Ukraine. I can't think of another place on earth that has the same status.

I can, there's loads of autonomous republics in Russia still.

 

[DairyQueen]

1. 11:38:
2. The takeover appears to have been carried out without bloodshed. Oleksander Balanyuk, a captain in the Ukrainian navy, told Reuters: "This morning they stormed the compound. They cut the gates open, but I heard no shooting."

1. 11:27:
   Earlier pro-Russian forces stormed the base, replacing the Ukrainian flag with a Russian one. A number of Ukrainian servicemen were seen leaving the base, unarmed and in civilian clothing.

1. 11:27:
   Various sources say the commander of the Ukrainian navy, Admiral Serhiy Haiduk, has been forced to leave the Ukrainian naval headquarters in Crimea, in Sevastopol, and has been taken away, apparently by Russian intelligence officers.

Anyone know how many Ukrainian troops are still in Crimea?

 

[Teaboy]

None. They're all Russian troops or prisoners now, probably.

 

[8ball]

None. They're all Russian troops or prisoners now, probably.

Plenty left their bases in civilian clothing, as per the demands of the Russians.

 

[seventh bullet]

I can, there's loads of autonomous republics in Russia still.

Indeed, the Russian Federation has over 20 of them. It's linked to old Soviet nationalities policy.

 

[butchersapron]

There's even a Buddhist one.

 

[frogwoman]

And in Brighton. Or Moscow-by-sea as we all now call it.

Won't be long before it's declared an eternal part of Russia then