Ukraine

[Casually Red]

Georgia/Ossetia was tit for tat for Kosovo, Transneistria was the product of a very different era and Crimea probably shouldn't have ever been part of Ukraine and the most interesting part of Putin's speech was his speculations about why Khruschev gave it to Ukraine in the first place.

I see the likelihood of trouble in Eastern Ukraine and I guess the shrieking is to warn Russia not to expect any more gimmes, Crimea is the limit etc. But the idea that Russia is on the march seems crazy to me. Even these much-vaunted sanctions don't add up to much more than closing a few oligarchs accounts at Harrods or whatever.

Id say more Crimea was the riposte to Kosovo, and not just Kosovo but the entire western doctrine as enunciated by Blair. In Georgia the Russian response was to an all out military offensive that twat actually believed thered be no response to. The Georgian government broke international agreements and treaties to respect the autonomy of those regions by unilaterally launching a military offensive without any warning and indiscriminately shelling urban centres and killing Russian peacekeepers.
After that no treaty or agreement was possible , that was the price for georgian aggression . And its really just a few valleys declaring udi after being shelled that russia recognised.

Crimea on the other hand can be justified by a more simple principle. The one the west itself has applied to Kosovo, and indeed other regions . Kosovo was definitely were this genie was let out of the bottle .Kosovo and Blairs Chicago doctrine spelling out the new rules led directly to Iraq, to Libya, gadaffis murder, the attempt to do the same to Assad. We came, we saw , he died...hahaha..as Hilary Clinton boasted. While all the time expanding eastwards tightening a noose round Russias neck . Despite their assurances in the 90s that NATO wouldnt be expanding to the east .

So Putin has left the western powers with a stark choice . Do they wish to persist with Tony Blairs Chicago doctrine, were the western powers inherent goodness and rightness combined with military might effectively renders international law and the UN redundant . Because if they do and those really are the new rules then Russia will simply follow those rules itself . After persistently warning them year in and year out that continued western flouting of international law will have serious consequences . Putin warned them time and time again were this would lead and their response was simply to ignore it and scoff. Well they certainly arent ignoring him and scoffing at him now. In fact its the other way round .

The Crimean crisis and Putins response to it has now completely changed the wests entire discourse. The talk of their exceptionalism in their speeches to the UN is now gone . Their affirmed right to act unilaterally and without UN hindrance, gone . Now its all sovereignty and respect for international law, no aggression. Quite the turn around.
What Crimea has now done is change western discourse. And im not talking about Hagues hypocrisy and press releases and stuff like that . Im talking about kerrys diplomatic appeals directly to Putin as to how their relations should now be conducted from hereonin . Theyve shit themselves because they really didnt see this coming, probably too busy spying on their own citizens. There was simply no talk of this in Nulans phonecall, or when they were in the Maidan openly egging on the nazis. Its finally dawned on them that they no longer live in a unipolar world, and that because of that they can no longer act as if they live in a unipolar world.

Putin may well have changed the rules of the entire game here and put Blairs doctrine firmly to bed.

 

[Casually Red]

More good news for Putin, and bad news for the nazis . Just weeks ago nazi leader Yarosh was openly calling on Chechen jihadist leader Umarov to assist them in their fight. Looks like Umarov wont be in a position to do that now, as the Chechen jihadists have released a statement confirming their emir has been martyred.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26634403

http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-address-umarov-380/

Russia has also issued an international warrant for Yaroshes arrest for inciting terrorist attacks on Russia. Theyve also issued another one for that fat bloke, Sasha Biliy..wotsisname..for torturing and killing captured conscripts back in the 90s.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

In the lead-up to Sunday's referendum in Crimea, a number of state-owned Russian media outlets reported that hundreds of thousands of ethnic Russians from Ukraine had fled to the Motherland.

But the video evidence they showed did not buttress these claims.

Their footage of a lineup of cars at the alleged Russian border was actually taken on a busy day at the Polish-Ukrainian border, an attempt to trick the Russian audience into believing that their compatriots in Ukraine are facing an acute humanitarian crisis.

Allegations of voter fraud and ballot stuffing reported on the ground in Sunday's referendum also did not make it to Russian prime time.
In the tug-of-war between Russia and the West over the fate of Ukraine, Russian media have been instrumental in painting a portrait of the conflict that suits the Kremlin's purposes.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/just-l...nds-its-propaganda-war-over-ukraine-1.2576189

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A poll by the Levada Centre, an independent Moscow-based research organization, found that 83 per cent of Russians think that Ukrainian radical nationalist or mafia organizations worsened tensions in Crimea.

As well, 43 per cent think that "nationalists and bandits" truly threaten Russians in Ukraine, and that the population can be protected only by Russian troops.
Given that the majority of Russians get their news from state-owned television, it is not surprising that most of the population agrees with the party-line version of the conflict.

But the official version in the state-owned media can at times be filled with omissions and inaccuracies.

A Russia 24 anchor also warned earlier this month that "mercenaries are now going to Crimea" and that "their aims are clear enough: to provoke a new wave of the crisis and rob people on the sly."

For example, Russia 24, a state-owned television channel, described clashes between pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian protesters in the Crimean capital of Simferopol last week.
But it showed footage from more violent altercations from earlier protests in Kyiv.

It remains unclear whether this was a simple technical mistake or a deliberate attempt to mislead.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/just-l...nds-its-propaganda-war-over-ukraine-1.2576189

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The information war being waged between Russia and the West over Ukraine took a back seat to a more insidious conflict recently: Russia's crackdown on the country's independent media.

Last week, Russian authorities sanctioned many independent media outlets because their reporting did not match the state's official narrative.

These recent attacks on independent media follow on the heels of the dismantling in December of RIA Novosti, a state-owned but historically independent news agency, and after cable providers dropped Dozhd, an independent television network, under Kremlin pressure.

Russia's media watchdog invoked the country's vague anti-extremism law to reprimand Lenta.ru, the country's first independent online news portal, for publishing an interview with a representative of the Right Sector, a far-right Ukrainian nationalist organization, in which there was a hyperlink to material published by the group.

The incident led to the dismissal of editor-in-chief Galina Timchenko, who was replaced by the former editor of a Kremlin-friendly online publication.

More than 35 staff members resigned in support of Timchenko and condemned the censorship of their news portal, Russia's 16th most read online resource with 12 million monthly visitors.

The Russian government also blocked opposition news websites — Grani.ru, Kasparov.ru and EJ.ru —because they contained "calls for participation in unauthorized rallies."
All three websites also contained material critical of the Kremlin.

The website of Ekho Moskvy, Russia's main liberal radio station, was also shut down Thursday because it contained a link to the blog of Alexei Navalny, the opposition figure who has led anti-Kremlin protest movements and who is currently under house arrest. Access to the website was restored once the link had been removed.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/just-l...nds-its-propaganda-war-over-ukraine-1.2576189

 

[Casually Red]

Ukrainian ministry of defence saying it was Russian forces, Crimean authorities blaming mystery 'snipers'. Who to believe? Who is providing evidence?

well the crimeans claim they captured one, so we shall just have to wait and see. It might be a hothead, it might be a provocation. I dunno. I saw a report the other day were they claim they foiled an attempt to blow up the main gas pumping station in Crimea.
Personally I dont see any reason why the Russians would need to kill a Ukranian soldier or how that could be in Russian interests. I can certainly see how it would be in Kievs interests.

 

[Casually Red]

So basically your FP article isn't saying anything that hasn't been already said in the UK media already? You just object to the *balance*, which isn't to your taste?
I can't find any evidence whatsoever that this law has been repealed - just a reference to an MP having submiited a proposal. No vote yet. No law repealed. Please find me some evidence otherwise if you have got any.

It's worth noting that the FP article also implies that the Russian-lanaguag law was passed into law when it was in fact *vetoed* and is therefore not law.

to quote: "One of its chief demands -- that all government business be done in Ukrainian -- was passed into law, instantaneously marginalizing the one-third of Ukraine's citizens (and 60 percent of Crimeans) who speak Russian."

just go to Ukraines official government website and see if its in Russian or not.

 

[Casually Red]

Apparently, in the U.K Parliamentary debate on Ukraine earlier today, Tory M.P's were baying for more robust action,

It is incredible though that Russia has basically annexed part of a sovereign state.

that would be the sovereign state whose government the western powers, incredibly, openly took part in the overthrow of just a weeks ago ? flying into its capital, standing alongside neonazis in its main square and encouraging them to continue petrol bombing its police and taking over ministry and police buildings. Right in front of the tv cameras. And even giving them sandwiches. Because its president exercised his sovereign right not to sign a disastrous treaty with the EU. And therefore had to go regardless of Ukrainian sovereignty. Rendering it effectively meaningless.

Sovereignty appears to be very important in the west these days when it certainly wasnt just a few weeks ago. Incredible right enough .

Funny enough when I saw Gadaffi being sodomised with knives after the very same western powers bombed his sovereign state into the toilet...along with his house, his failys houses, his car, all sorts... I thought it was pretty incredible too . Its a sovereign state I thought. I posted that thought on this internet site. Most people here abused me over such silly old fashioned notions.

But heres sovereignty back in fashion again. Its like the mod thing, and ska. Or Flares.

 

[Casually Red]

The thing with Georgia though was another example of the US messing about, leading that tie-munching twat to think it worth opening up with the artilliary against Georgia's own breakaway region (an attack in which South Ossetian civilians and Russian troops acting as UN sponsored peace-keepers were killed).

Tie-munching twat grew the balls to do this in the first place because he thought the Americans would back him up.

Are you seriously saying you think Georgia was a matter of Russian belligerence and land-grabbing? In my opinion that turns what happened completely on its head.

its amazing how so much western opinion overlooks the rather important fact that the Georgian spat began with a Georgian military offensive against UN mandated peacekeepers and civilian districts in breach of all peace agreements. Yet its potrayed as Russian aggression. McCains an idiot but hes an idiot successful in getting his agenda accross. Doesnt say much for the intelligence of those who swallow it though.

 

[Fuchs66]

local police are are reporting a sniper opened fire on both the Ukranian troops and Crimean self defence squads, killing one of each .

These mysterious snipers popping up all over the place, trying to frame the Russian troops/hastely formed local defence militias.

I blame Blackwater/CIA/martians!

Glory to Russia

 

[Fuchs66]

.

 

[Fuchs66]

its amazing how so much western opinion overlooks the rather important fact that the Georgian spat began with a Georgian military offensive against UN mandated peacekeepers and civilian districts in breach of all peace agreements.

Which UN mandated peacekeepers are you talking about and what was their mandate based upon, as in which decision by the UN?

 

[Kuchuk]

These mysterious snipers popping up all over the place, trying to frame the Russian troops/hastely formed local defence militias.

I blame Blackwater/CIA/martians!

Glory to Russia

why frame up?
it is well for russian. Putin may increase military presence

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Has anyone seen this badly written lunacy from the Labour Representation Committee yet?

http://l-r-c.org.uk/blog/post/russia-is-not-imperialist/

 

[frogwoman]

Hello comrades

I do not think that Russia is an imperialism. It cannot be! US imperialism gives it no room, and global capital holds all the strategic resources (raw materials and markets) from where any new capitalism can arise. Hence Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan destroyed. No historic development there, only this cannibalism where the few insanely rich eat people, and the earth.

 

[frogwoman]

The presence of NATO behind any movement is an immediate indicator of the nature of that movement. Isn’t that right? Tell me, somebody.

 

[DotCommunist]

what ever happened to the warsaw pact thats what I'd like to know. What else do we have to combat US military aggression.

 

[nino_savatte]

People seem to forget (or ignore) the fact that Crimea was an autonomous republic within Ukraine. An unusual arrangement (at least in Western eyes) for sure, but it was different to the rest of Ukraine. I can't think of another place on earth that has the same status.

I think talk of 'annexation' is typical NATO/EU spin that ignores the history of the region and the former status of Crimea.

 

[frogwoman]

i've been pointing this out - Crimea was never fully controlled by Ukraine anyway.

However what the Russian state has done is still very, very worrying to say the least

 

[Belushi]

Any moment now Soviet Tank Armies are going to come crashing through the Fulda gap

*puts down copy of Red Storm Rising to push little tanks around a giant map laid out on the kitchen table*

 

[DotCommunist]

the first military-on-military death is a proper worrying development. It's all very well for the brass to say 'hold this, do that, keep your temper' but its boots on the ground now and blood leads to blood. Escalation/revenge etc.

I'm also unsure as to how effective or warranted 'sanctions' against russia will be. Whats the point? I'll tank your internal economy and you'll do the same to me?

I'm no putin fanboy but hadn't obama been signalling some withdrawal from old europe in terms of meddling- whereas actually wr have mr oven fry egging on the EU. Fuck knows.

 

[frogwoman]

There were two soldiers killed yesterday one of them was russian...

 

[DotCommunist]

There were two soldiers killed yesterday one of them was russian...

it's the sort of thing that starts a snowball rolling down hill.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

it's the sort of thing that starts a snowball rolling down hill.

Just have to hope the diplomats are working well. It's not as if the West actually gives a shit about Crimea. Its population almost certainly does have a majority that wants to be in Russia now that the coup in Ukraine has overthrown the man most Crimeans voted for. Opposing the annexation is not about defending democracy, nor defending self-determination. In private, they must surely be advising Kiev that this particular battle is already lost.

I'm with co-op on this, too. Why, exactly, has the West suddenly decided to focus on what Putin is doing at the non-EU/NATO fringes of the former SU? They've never given a shit before.

 

[likesfish]

Which UN mandated peacekeepers are you talking about and what was their mandate based upon, as in which decision by the UN?

More russian backed with some Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe input.

If the un had been involved there wouldnt have been any russian peackeepers involved and the geogians would have taken the town

 

[J Ed]

Like... the Sudeten Germans.

Are you so historically illiterate that you can only think in terms of WW2?

 

[J Ed]

I can't find any evidence whatsoever that this law has been repealed - just a reference to an MP having submiited a proposal. No vote yet. No law repealed. Please find me some evidence otherwise if you have got any.

It's worth noting that the FP article also implies that the Russian-lanaguag law was passed into law when it was in fact *vetoed* and is therefore not law.

to quote: "One of its chief demands -- that all government business be done in Ukrainian -- was passed into law, instantaneously marginalizing the one-third of Ukraine's citizens (and 60 percent of Crimeans) who speak Russian."

It does seem to be a proposal, a proposal which has gone unreported and a proposal which shows the priorities of the fascists in the Ukrainian government. Satisfied?

 

[camouflage]

There were two soldiers killed yesterday one of them was russian...

Front page of Metro thismorning: RUSSIANS COMMIT WAR CRIMES!!!!!1!

or something like that anyway, 'eek' smileyface and exclamation-mark exclamation-mark one exclamation-mark included.

 

[8ball]

Are you so historically illiterate that you can only think in terms of WW2?

You're being quite charitable even calling it 'thinking'.

 

[frogwoman]

1. 11:38:
2. The takeover appears to have been carried out without bloodshed. Oleksander Balanyuk, a captain in the Ukrainian navy, told Reuters: "This morning they stormed the compound. They cut the gates open, but I heard no shooting."

1. 11:27:
   Earlier pro-Russian forces stormed the base, replacing the Ukrainian flag with a Russian one. A number of Ukrainian servicemen were seen leaving the base, unarmed and in civilian clothing.

1. 11:27:
   Various sources say the commander of the Ukrainian navy, Admiral Serhiy Haiduk, has been forced to leave the Ukrainian naval headquarters in Crimea, in Sevastopol, and has been taken away, apparently by Russian intelligence officers.