Ukraine

[Fuchs66]

From what you yourself concede their language of study is dictated and the role of their native language limited by law.

Of course, as it is in almost every other country in the world.

 

[tim]

Of course, as it is in almost every other country in the world.

Not to substantial long-established minority communities.
The Latvian state is a twentieth century creation before that its territories were incorporated into various larger Empires including two centuries within the Russian empire. For all its existence it has had a multi-ethnic population.
I see no real justification therefore or one ethnic group claim the right to dictate to another

 

[andysays]

Meanwhile in the Baltic

The Guardian’s Dan Roberts has more on vice-president Joe Biden’s comments about US military presence in the Baltics:

The US is considering sending ground troops to the Baltic states on new military exercises … “We are exploring a number of additional steps to increase the pace and scope of our military co-operation, including rotating US forces to the Baltic region to conduct ground and naval exercises – as well as training missions,” said Biden.

President Ilves [of Estonia] called on Nato to put “the east-west relationship on a new standing” after events in the Ukraine.

“We in Nato must draw our conclusions from Russia’s behaviour in the current crisis and conduct a review of the entire range of Nato-Russia relations. My hope is that at the upcoming [Nato] summit in Wales we will refocus on common defence: the raison d’etre of the alliance.”

Biden also told Polish president Bronislaw Komorowski that a dozen F-16s have been sent to Poland, saying “You have an ally whose budget is larger than the next 10 nations in the world combined, so don’t worry about where we are,” according to a White House pool report.

 

[SovietArmy]

Meanwhile in the Baltic

USA sending troops to Baltic states? Fuck them with are not USA children we don't need childcare. I still believing this will be solved peaceful way. As we know Russia don't want any wars.

 

[treelover]

The old Eastern Bloc countries:, Poland, Romania, Hungary(mostly right wing), etc are trying to draw in the West into a conflagration or at least a stand off with Russia, imo.

 

[SovietArmy]

The old Eastern Bloc countries:, Poland, Romania, Hungary(mostly right wing), etc are trying to draw in the West into a conflagration or at least a stand off with Russia, imo.

Government
yes right wing, but majority are not.

 

[treelover]

Wikipedia said:
The Ukrainian combat ration is based on a previous Russian version, consisting of commercially available cans and dried foods packed together in a sectioned box (resembles a takeout tray) made of very thin green plastic. Inside are: two 250 g mmin Meal cans (boiled buckwheat groats and buckwheat w/beef); two 100 g cans of meat spread (liver pate and beef in lard); a 160 g can of herring or mackerel; six 50 g packages small, hard crackers (resemble oyster crackers); two foil pouches (20 g each) of jam or jelly; six boiled sweets two tea bags; an envelope of instant cherry juice powder; a chicken flavour bouillon cube; two packets of sugar; and three dining packets, each with a plastic spoon, a napkin, and a moist towelette.



Wikipedia is nothing but thorough

 

[8ball]

I think if a conflict went on for any length of time the British rations would be the best. <swells with patriotic pride>

Wonder what the Scots will have in theirs if they secede...

 

[treelover]

"two tea bags"

bit mean, must have to reuse them

 

[8ball]

"two tea bags"

bit mean, must have to reuse them

Yes - that's a fucking outrage!

 

[andysays]

The old Eastern Bloc countries:, Poland, Romania, Hungary(mostly right wing), etc are trying to draw in the West into a conflagration or at least a stand off with Russia, imo.

And from earlier

Turkey has reportedly threatened to close the Bosphorus to Russian ships, if there is violence against the Crimean Tatars.

In his speech today, President Putin was at pains to stress that the rights of Tatars, persecuted and deported from Ukraine in the Stalin-era, would be protected.

Citing a diplomatic source, the Sofia news agency says that Turkey’s prime minister Recep Erdogan made the threat in a telephone conversation with Putin.

Erdogan also said that Turkey would not recognise the referendum in Crimea in which 97% of the voters cast their ballots in favour of joining the Russian Federation, according to the report.

I'm not convinced that anyone is deliberately trying to turn this into a conflagration, but if the brinkmanship continues, there's certainly a danger that someone goes further than they intended...

 

[camouflage]

Part of Putins speech today below, though better to read the whole thing as I doubt we'll see much of it in the Western media tbh.

Colleagues,

Like a mirror, the situation in Ukraine reflects what is going on and what has been happening in the world over the past several decades. After the dissolution of bipolarity on the planet, we no longer have stability. Key international institutions are not getting any stronger; on the contrary, in many cases, they are sadly degrading. Our western partners, led by the United States of America, prefer not to be guided by international law in their practical policies, but by the rule of the gun. They have come to believe in their exclusivity and exceptionalism, that they can decide the destinies of the world, that only they can ever be right. They act as they please: here and there, they use force against sovereign states, building coalitions based on the principle “If you are not with us, you are against us.” To make this aggression look legitimate, they force the necessary resolutions from international organisations, and if for some reason this does not work, they simply ignore the UN Security Council and the UN overall.

This happened in Yugoslavia; we remember 1999 very well. It was hard to believe, even seeing it with my own eyes, that at the end of the 20th century, one of Europe’s capitals, Belgrade, was under missile attack for several weeks, and then came the real intervention. Was there a UN Security Council resolution on this matter, allowing for these actions? Nothing of the sort. And then, they hit Afghanistan, Iraq, and frankly violated the UN Security Council resolution on Libya, when instead of imposing the so-called no-fly zone over it they started bombing it too.

There was a whole series of controlled “colour” revolutions. Clearly, the people in those nations, where these events took place, were sick of tyranny and poverty, of their lack of prospects; but these feelings were taken advantage of cynically. Standards were imposed on these nations that did not in any way correspond to their way of life, traditions, or these peoples’ cultures. As a result, instead of democracy and freedom, there was chaos, outbreaks in violence and a series of upheavals. The Arab Spring turned into the Arab Winter.

A similar situation unfolded in Ukraine. In 2004, to push the necessary candidate through at the presidential elections, they thought up some sort of third round that was not stipulated by the law. It was absurd and a mockery of the constitution. And now, they have thrown in an organised and well-equipped army of militants.

We understand what is happening; we understand that these actions were aimed against Ukraine and Russia and against Eurasian integration. And all this while Russia strived to engage in dialogue with our colleagues in the West. We are constantly proposing cooperation on all key issues; we want to strengthen our level of trust and for our relations to be equal, open and fair. But we saw no reciprocal steps.

http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/6889

Western media translation: PUTIN DEFIANT, YEARNS FOR RETURN OF USSR!

 

[kebabking]

...I'm not convinced that anyone is deliberately trying to turn this into a conflagration, but if the brinkmanship continues, there's certainly a danger that someone goes further than they intended...

the Poles, and the Baltic states, think the conflagration is coming regardless of shrill voices - their view is that they can either be ready for it and deter it, or hope it goes away and wake up in the middle of it. they are genuinely, seriously scared - panic is not too strong a word for some of the phone calls going to Brussels, Washington, London and Berlin. they are not fcuking about playing silly games, they are properly shitting themselves.

i think theres a good chance that the miscalculation is on our bear wrestling friends part - he has scared people far more than he thought he would, and they are reacting in proportion to that fear.

 

[TomUS]

Part of Putins speech today below, though better to read the whole thing as I doubt we'll see it in the media tbh.
http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/6889

It is in the media.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wh...-kremlin-transcript-2014-03-18?dist=afterbell
Also just saw a clip of his speech on CNN.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fe...-europe-other-crimea-2014313132814552215.html

kebabking this is the best bit of analysis I've seen on transnistria so far

 

[co-op]

the Poles, and the Baltic states, think the conflagration is coming regardless of shrill voices - their view is that they can either be ready for it and deter it, or hope it goes away and wake up in the middle of it. they are genuinely, seriously scared - panic is not too strong a word for some of the phone calls going to Brussels, Washington, London and Berlin. they are not fcuking about playing silly games, they are properly shitting themselves.

i think theres a good chance that the miscalculation is on our bear wrestling friends part - he has scared people far more than he thought he would, and they are reacting in proportion to that fear.

You might well be right about the degree of fear/panic in Eastern govts but I cannot see why...does anyone seriously think Russia is going to war with Ukraine? Let alone Poland, the balts etc? It seems to me they have acted almost entirely predictably and fairly cautiously, taken the absolute minimum and drawn a line.

But the news coverage here supports your reading, I don't remember such a degree of shrill 'demands' for 'decisive action' etc etc since the Afghan invasion and Second Cold War in 1979. Is there any special reason why we are supposed to all be hatin' on Russia just now? It beats me, it really does.

 

[Shadrach]

Welcome to U75 btw.

Thank you

 

[camouflage]

It is in the media.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wh...-kremlin-transcript-2014-03-18?dist=afterbell
Also just saw a clip of his speech on CNN.

Chopped to look scary and dumb by the looks of it. That's not a transcript anyway, the whole speech without editing is the better way to approach these things I've found. time consuming of course.

 

[Belushi]

You might well be right about the degree of fear/panic in Eastern govts but I cannot see why...

History...

 

[Shadrach]

The pre-1989 Eastern Bloc countries had huge black markets, which is a form of capitalism that most of the people dealt with on a regular basis.

I meant capitalism as the prevailing ideology.

 

[andysays]

the Poles, and the Baltic states, think the conflagration is coming regardless of shrill voices - their view is that they can either be ready for it and deter it, or hope it goes away and wake up in the middle of it. they are genuinely, seriously scared - panic is not too strong a word for some of the phone calls going to Brussels, Washington, London and Berlin. they are not fcuking about playing silly games, they are properly shitting themselves.

i think theres a good chance that the miscalculation is on our bear wrestling friends part - he has scared people far more than he thought he would, and they are reacting in proportion to that fear.

Sure, I can appreciate that they're scared. There is, however, a danger that doing things to be ready for it/deter it (like stepping up NATO exercises in the Baltic, or sending fighter jets to Poland, for instance) can actually make the thing which you fear more likely to happen, not less.

There are sorts of interests at play here, various groups and individuals in all the various capitals you've mentioned and others who are saying, not only how can we calm this situation down, but also how can we actually benefit from it. The opportunity for miscalculation is therefore way beyond the simple idea that the leader of one "side" or other may do one single thing which, in itself, causes all hell to break loose.

 

[kebabking]

You might well be right about the degree of fear/panic in Eastern govts but I cannot see why...does anyone seriously think Russia is going to war with Ukraine? Let alone Poland, the balts etc? It seems to me they have acted almost entirely predictably and fairly cautiously, taken the absolute minimum and drawn a line.

But the news coverage here supports your reading, I don't remember such a degree of shrill 'demands' for 'decisive action' etc etc since the Afghan invasion and Second Cold War in 1979. Is there any special reason why we are supposed to all be hatin' on Russia just now? It beats me, it really does.

they think our friend is going to stir up trouble in eastern Ukraine and 'have' to react to it, however unwillingly*, and that sooner or later Russia will have a new province and Ukraine will be half the size it was 3 weeks ago.

they think he'll do exactly the same to them. he has, after all, done it in Georgia, Crimea, and effectively in Moldova - these are not wild fantasies or conspiraloon nonsence, they are solid examples...

*not unwillingly, at all.

 

[Shadrach]

Part of Putins speech today below, though better to read the whole thing as I doubt we'll see much of it in the Western media tbh.



http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/6889

Western media translation: PUTIN DEFIANT, YEARNS FOR RETURN OF USSR!

Well, to be honest I do have to take issue with what he said here. "Bipolarity" - that pretty much implies a "Yearn for the return of the USSR". Also note the defamation of the "the rule of the gun" - as if the war with Georgia never happened, or what's happening right now in the Crimea. He certainly acts like he is "yearning for the return of USSR".

 

[yield]

Not sure if this has already been posted?
An Interview With Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn on Ukraine
Counterpunch March 14-16, 2014
This interview appeared in the May 9, 1994, issue of Forbes magazine.

Why does the [USA] State Department decide who should get Sevastopol? If one recalls the tactless declaration of President Bush about supporting Ukrainian sovereignty even before the referendum on that matter, one must conclude that all this stems from a common aim: to use all means possible, no matter what the consequences, to weaken Russia.

Why does independence for Ukraine weaken Russia?

As a result of the sudden and crude fragmentation of the intermingled Slavic peoples, the borders have torn apart millions of ties of family and friendship. Is this acceptable? The recent elections in Ukraine, for instance, clearly show the [Russian] sympathies of the Crimean and Donets populations. And a democracy must respect this.

I myself am nearly half Ukrainian. I grew up with the sounds of Ukrainian speech. I love her culture and genuinely wish all kinds of success for Ukraine–but only within her real ethnic boundaries, without grabbing Russian provinces.

I think that this is an existential crisis for Russia.

I wonder what Angela Merkel and Recep Tayyip Erdogan are saying in private?

 

[ViolentPanda]

In the case of Latvia, mostly economic migration. Latvia has a higher proportion of Russian-speakers than the other Baltic states because it saw greater industrialisation in this period, hence greater immigration.

Kind of misses the social purposes of exporting Russian labour, especially skilled labour, which was generally to provide a tier of "loyalist" labour (and by "loyalist" I mean "Russo-centric Soviet citizens who owe their social progress to 'the party' ". It's an old game, played in many (if not all) empires.

 

[co-op]

they think our friend is going to stir up trouble in eastern Ukraine and 'have' to react to it, however unwillingly*, and that sooner or later Russia will have a new province and Ukraine will be half the size it was 3 weeks ago.

they think he'll do exactly the same to them. he has, after all, done it in Georgia, Crimea, and effectively in Moldova - these are not wild fantasies or conspiraloon nonsence, they are solid examples...

*not unwillingly, at all.

Georgia/Ossetia was tit for tat for Kosovo, Transneistria was the product of a very different era and Crimea probably shouldn't have ever been part of Ukraine and the most interesting part of Putin's speech was his speculations about why Khruschev gave it to Ukraine in the first place.

I see the likelihood of trouble in Eastern Ukraine and I guess the shrieking is to warn Russia not to expect any more gimmes, Crimea is the limit etc. But the idea that Russia is on the march seems crazy to me. Even these much-vaunted sanctions don't add up to much more than closing a few oligarchs accounts at Harrods or whatever.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think I'm going to stop banging my head (at least for the time being) against the brick wall of your inability to distinguish between the Russian state and all people who speak Russian.

Mind you, there is (and IMO has always been) a similar mentality among ethnic Russians as was held by ethnic Germans prior to WW2 - a form of nationalist chauvinism that led many to believe they were better than those who they were transplanted amid. Many of them saw the Tsarist empire and the Soviet Union as a projection of Russian superiority over their historical "vassals", and see the post-SU landscape under Putin as a reassertion of rightful authority. Such perspectives tend to grate on the states where ethnic Russians do evince such views.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wow, this is getting pretty racial sounding

Describing settled immigrant populations as "ethnic *******" is standard in demographic explanations. It indicates a minority culture, generally. British people of Pakistani origin are "ethnic Pakistanis. Latvian people of Russian origin are "ethnic Russians".

 

[camouflage]

Well, to be honest I do have to take issue with what he said here. "Bipolarity" - that pretty much implies a "Yearn for the return of the USSR". Also note the defamation of the "the rule of the gun" - as if the war with Georgia never happened, or what's happening right now in the Crimea. He certainly acts like he is "yearning for the return of USSR".

The thing with Georgia though was another example of the US messing about, leading that tie-munching twat to think it worth opening up with the artilliary against Georgia's own breakaway region (an attack in which South Ossetian civilians and Russian troops acting as UN sponsored peace-keepers were killed).

Tie-munching twat grew the balls to do this in the first place because he thought the Americans would back him up.

Are you seriously saying you think Georgia was a matter of Russian belligerence and land-grabbing? In my opinion that turns what happened completely on its head.

 

[andysays]

Mind you, there is (and IMO has always been) a similar mentality among ethnic Russians as was held by ethnic Germans prior to WW2 - a form of nationalist chauvinism that led many to believe they were better than those who they were transplanted amid. Many of them saw the Tsarist empire and the Soviet Union as a projection of Russian superiority over their historical "vassals", and see the post-SU landscape under Putin as a reassertion of rightful authority. Such perspectives tend to grate on the states where ethnic Russians do evince such views.

I'm sure that's the case of some ethnic Russians and some ethnic Germans, as well as some ethnic English and some ethnic Chinese, but I hope we can get beyond the idea that all members of a particular ethnicity are guilty of the national chauvinism which their tribe is labelled with, just as we've hopefully got beyond the idea that whole ethnic or national groups are still somehow responsible for the generations-old sins of their notional forefathers.