Ukraine

[frogwoman]

 

[frogwoman]

Yes Latvian Estonian and as myself from Lithuania we should think how to run country, I have no interest in Lithuania for the moment country run by celebrities rich business people, media are Schwarzenegger culture is crap is going on my nerves. Sick of listening horrors of Russian past and ah always reminding us about Stalins era.

this is a serious thread.

 

[co-op]

I don't get it - I would have thought the Western lot would be pushing Ukraine to stand down in Crimea and just try to reinforce the remaining Ukrainian border.

Well there's probably no unanimity and there's obviously some dickhead who wants a few dead Ukrainian soldiers and to me that looks to benefit the West + Kiev more than Russia so I'm guessing it's someone in Kiev. But there'll be plenty of western hawks who'll be happy with a few martyrs for western values.

 

[seventh bullet]

Yes Latvian Estonian and as myself from Lithuania we should think how to run country, I have no interest in Lithuania for the moment country run by celebrities rich business people, media are Schwarzenegger culture is crap is going on my nerves. Sick of listening horrors of Russian past and ah always reminding us about Stalins era.

Move to Dagobah, then. It's quiet there, with no internet access, so you won't be a nuisance to people on this thread.

 

[Teaboy]

Well there's probably no unanimity and there's obviously some dickhead who wants a few dead Ukrainian soldiers and to me that looks to benefit the West + Kiev more than Russia so I'm guessing it's someone in Kiev. But there'll be plenty of western hawks who'll be happy with a few martyrs for western values.

I don't disagree with that, but who's firing the shots at the moment? I can't see heavily outnumbered and outgunned soldiers picking a fight to martyr themselves.

 

[co-op]

I don't get it - I would have thought the Western lot would be pushing Ukraine to stand down in Crimea and just try to reinforce the remaining Ukrainian border.

I wondered if this was going to happen when those Ukrainian soldiers were marched up to the Russian soldiers who fired a few shots over their heads (about a week ago) - they were singing the UA national anthem but bloody hell they sounded like they had dry throats, I think a fair few of them thought they were going to be sacrificed. I wondered at the time if some arse somewhere was looking for a bit of spilt blood to get the national vibe going

 

[8ball]

Well there's probably no unanimity and there's obviously some dickhead who wants a few dead Ukrainian soldiers and to me that looks to benefit the West + Kiev more than Russia so I'm guessing it's someone in Kiev. But there'll be plenty of western hawks who'll be happy with a few martyrs for western values.

The whole thing is a fucking powderkeg and any shooting just increases the chance of Western powers being dragged in so far as I can see, I would think they'd be steering well clear and pushing Ukraine to pull soldiers out of Crimea. There are some total fucknuts in the US but I doubt Obama is dumb enough to leave things to drift towards escalations.

 

[co-op]

I don't disagree with that, but who's firing the shots at the moment? I can't see heavily outnumbered and outgunned soldiers picking a fight to martyr themselves.

It says that a Ukrainian soldier has died of wounds so I guess the Russians have opened fire. But I guess that happened because the UA troops have been told to refuse entry to the Russians.

 

[co-op]

The whole thing is a fucking powderkeg and any shooting just increases the chance of Western powers being dragged in so far as I can see, I would think they'd be steering well clear and pushing Ukraine to pull soldiers out of Crimea. There are some total fucknuts in the US but I doubt Obama is dumb enough to leave things to drift towards escalations.

I think it's all formulaic still, it just gives the west a chance to stamp around a bit in outrage and maybe wins over a few of the (obviously sceptical) western public. Looks like utterly pointless killing.

 

[frogwoman]

Oh fuck

 

[Teaboy]

It says that a Ukrainian soldier has died of wounds so I guess the Russians have opened fire. But I guess that happened because the UA troops have been told to refuse entry to the Russians.

I would guess so as well, so as much as certain factions may have wanted this its still Russia that has escalated and now doing the killing. I'm beginning to wonder just how much control Putin has on the ground.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fuck. Yatsenyuk wading in already, calling it a Russian war crime.

 

[andysays]

Shouldn't Ukraine be telling the troops to stand down - a massacre isn't going to help anyone.

Oh, but it will. It will help those on both sides who want to have everything polarised in terms of nationality/ethnicity/language.

The more people identify with their supposed national group, and against the opposing enemy group, the less they identify with their own class interests and the more with the ruling class interests of "their" nation.

 

[J Ed]

I would have thought the time for martyring Ukrainian soldiers would be before the referendum, not after.

 

[8ball]

Fuck. Yatsenyuk wading in already, calling it a Russian war crime.

Technically it is.

 

[co-op]

I would guess so as well, so as much as certain factions may have wanted this its still Russia that has escalated and now doing the killing. I'm beginning to wonder just how much control Putin has on the ground.

Well once they had annexed Crimea politically they really had no choice but to get on and take full control militarily or it would turn into some drawn-out hostage/siege crisis. They'll have it nailed down very quickly I would imagine and it seems utterly pointless on the part of the UA soldiers to resist. I sure wouldn't.

 

[8ball]

Well once they had annexed Crimea politically they really had no choice but to get on and take full control militarily or it would turn into some drawn-out hostage/siege crisis. They'll have it nailed down very quickly I would imagine and it seems utterly pointless on the part of the UA soldiers to resist. I sure wouldn't.

How much food is there going to be in those bases? They could just have waited a bit.

 

[andysays]

I would have thought the time for martyring Ukrainian soldiers would be before the referendum, not after.

I'm not saying that this has been deliberately staged now for those purposes (I don't claim to know enough about what's actually gone on), simply pointing out that it does, in fact, serve some people's interests for it to escalate in this way.

 

[Teaboy]

Well once they had annexed Crimea politically they really had no choice but to get on and take full control militarily or it would turn into some drawn-out hostage/siege crisis. They'll have it nailed down very quickly I would imagine and it seems utterly pointless on the part of the UA soldiers to resist. I sure wouldn't.

The option as always is to try and defuse the situation, seemingly they had achieved what they wanted, why start the killing now? The UA soldiers were very unlikely to kick off but they have been ordered to hold their ground, so what next kill them all?

This is a shocking escalation and probably unnecessary, I can't believe the kremlin wanted this for one minute but they're going to have to deal with the fall out.

 

[kebabking]

..The UA soldiers were very unlikely to kick off but they have been ordered to hold their ground, so what next kill them all?

This is a shocking escalation and probably unnecessary, I can't believe the kremlin wanted this for one minute but they're going to have to deal with the fall out.

the Kremlin wants this 'over' - they want pictures of pretty Crimean girls with Russian flags painted on their faces on the TV, they do not want pictures of sullen/defiant looking Ukrainian soldiers behind barbed wire reminding everyone that 3 weeks ago this was part of Ukraine.

you could argue that Putin has decided that he'd be better off with a bit of force now rather than have the whole debacle drag on for a couple of months - personally i doubt that is what has happened because if you're going to do it, or encourage surrender, you do so with overwhelming force, not a couple of wagons and a dozen soldiers. looks like either its local tussle got out of control, or some politico has said 'just do something..' without thinking that the commnder on the ground has very limited options, and that the obvious one involes whizzing bits of metal.

as for how long could they hold out - i presume they have ration packs on the base. last time i walked into the QM shed in Brecon (quite a small barracks), they had about 5000 RP's, enough for 100 blokes to live there for 2 months...

 

[DotCommunist]

they had about 5000 RP's, enough for 100 blokes to live there for 2 months...

in culinary misery

 

[kebabking]

in culinary misery

depends what they are like - our ones are better than the slop served at Tidworth mess, though i rather fear to imagine what 6 weeks of boil-in-the-bag cabbage and dumplings* would do to a man...

*gratuitous national stereotype alert.

 

[8ball]

in culinary misery

The Ukrainian combat ration is based on a previous Russian version, consisting of commercially available cans and dried foods packed together in a sectioned box (resembles a takeout tray) made of very thin green plastic. Inside are: two 250 g mmin Meal cans (boiled buckwheat groats and buckwheat w/beef); two 100 g cans of meat spread (liver pate and beef in lard); a 160 g can of herring or mackerel; six 50 g packages small, hard crackers (resemble oyster crackers); two foil pouches (20 g each) of jam or jelly; six boiled sweets two tea bags; an envelope of instant cherry juice powder; a chicken flavour bouillon cube; two packets of sugar; and three dining packets, each with a plastic spoon, a napkin, and a moist towelette.

 

[frogwoman]

Fuck.

I've got mates in Russia, and in Moldova not so far from there

 

[tim]

But where does this right that Russian be made an official language come from? Nobody is banning the language, the majority of Latvians just don't want it as an official language and recent events haven't done much to make them change their minds.

Not really but the actions of the Soviet Union have led to the situation of today and the effects are still felt so to ignore them again is just closing one eye and ignoring a major factor.

The position of the individual ethnic Russian Latvians is to a large extent down to them, they can accept Latvian citizenship with everything that comes with that, or maybe take up the "repatriation" offer from Russia or work on an alternative, workable solution.

The alternative solution being fighting full equality before the law including equal linguistic and cultural rights. Why should any individual or group of individuals accept being treated as a second class citizen within their own society? What ethical right do the majority have to dictate the way of life of the minority?

 

[kebabking]

..Ukrainian feild Ration..

faced with the prospect of that for 6 weeks, i for one would welcome our new Russian overlords...

 

[8ball]

faced with the prospect of that for 6 weeks, i for one would welcome our new Russian overlords...

The Russian field ration certainly is much better.

 

[Fuchs66]

The alternative solution being fighting full equality before the law including equal linguistic and cultural rights. Why should any individual or group of individuals accept being treated as a second class citizen within their own society? What ethical right do the majority have to dictate the way of life of the minority?

How is the "way of life" of the Russian minority being dictated by the majority? They already have full equality before the law.

 

[J Ed]

faced with the prospect of that for 6 weeks, i for one would welcome our new Russian overlords...

I'd prefer to be stuck with Italian ones, yum http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/feb/18/eat-of-battle-worlds-armies-fed

 

[tim]

How is the "way of life" of the Russian minority being dictated by the majority? They already have full equality before the law.

From what you yourself concede their language of study is dictated and the role of their native language limited by law.