Ukraine

[camouflage]

putins grandfather was a cook in the tsarist service, presumably he baked the odd thing...all coming together

Pretzels within Pretzels.

 

[camouflage]

Is this some sort of joke?

No. ffs man, do you ever just plainly answer a question plainly asked?

 

[frogwoman]

"tartars out of crimea"

this was shared on the euromaidan page on facebook with the implication russians had done it, although im not sure who did ...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is fucked. I don't see a good solution.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[butchersapron]

What's wrong with anti-fascist graffiti?

 

[J Ed]

Well imagine how Jewish people in Poland would react if there was a referendum in the parts of Poland which had been taken from Germany during the war and the result was that they chose to be a part of Germany again.

Isn't modern Germany a lot less anti-Semitic than modern Poland? Not that that has anytihng to do with this obviously

 

[frogwoman]

Isn't modern Germany a lot less anti-Semitic than modern Poland? Not that that has anytihng to do with this obviously

I think in general yes, sorry, i was trying to use an analogy about how some people may feel about being a part of russia again and couldn't think of a better/more obvious one. sorry.

 

[co-op]

Poland had anti-jewish pogroms after WW2, and its history of anti-semiticism is right up there with Russia and Germany. It wasn't a total coincidence that most of the worst murder camps were on Polish soil. Not an awful lot of jews left there to get stressed out about getting reunified with Germany.

 

[J Ed]

Don't say sorry I was just being a silly pedant!

 

[co-op]

It hasn't been genocide.

It was getting bloody close to the technical definition and Chechens might well think that if the Russians could get away with it, they'd have suffered the same fate as the Circassians whose treatment by the Russian Czarist regime in the second half of the 19th C was definitely a genocide as far as I read the definition - this was arguably the precursor to the (now) better-known Armenian genocide during WW1 which was arguably a form of retaliation for it.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Because the Russian government is far right. Of the 14 defining characteristics of fascism, I'd say Putin's Russia meets 9 or 10 of them.
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4. Supremacy of the Military
6. Controlled Mass Media
7. Obsession with National Security
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections

To be fair though most modern governments fit that quite well, not least your own.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ethno-nationalism is a terrifying beast. Putin and the tomfools in Kiev think they have those demons of hell on a leash and that they can always hold that leash tight.

One gun shot in the wrong place and those demons are lose.

As a look at history 100 years ago would amply reveal.

 

[treelover]

The Graunid livefeed is showing this tweet (they can identify flags accurately when they want to..)

edited for error

 

[ViolentPanda]

So similar to the Roma then. Are there Roma as well in the area also getting nervous?

No, not at all similar to the Roma. Roma are mostly Christian, and therefore there isn't the added "my G-d is better than your G-d" element to their persecution as there is with Crimean Tatars, who are mostly Muslim.

You are aware of the element of religious nationalism in Russian policy since the SU collapsed, I take it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, because they're in a different country! But the genocide of a Muslim group in the Russian federation - the Chechens - doesn't inspire confidence.

"Genocide" is a hysterical claim. The Russians don't want to exterminate the Chechens, they want to thoroughly subjugate them.

 

[frogwoman]

No, not at all similar to the Roma. Roma are mostly Christian, and therefore there isn't the added "my G-d is better than your G-d" element to their persecution as there is with Crimean Tatars, who are mostly Muslim.

You are aware of the element of religious nationalism in Russian policy since the SU collapsed, I take it?

There's been a bit of state-encouraged prejudice in campaigns about "sects" (protestant and catholic) as well IIRC

 

[treelover]

Ethno-nationalism is a terrifying beast. Putin and the tomfools in Kiev think they have those demons of hell on a leash and that they can always hold that leash tight.

One gun shot in the wrong place and those demons are lose.

http://timethemoment.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/bos_238-239_small.jpg?w=709


yes

 

[ViolentPanda]

Systematic massacres. Hundreds of thousands dead. An attempt to destroy a sense of identity.

"Systematic massacres" implies occurrences along the lines of Babi Yar or Katyn. This hasn't happened in Chechnya. What has happened is an illustration of just how murderous an artillery and air war can be in an urban environment.

 

[camouflage]

No, not at all similar to the Roma. Roma are mostly Christian, and therefore there isn't the added "my G-d is better than your G-d" element to their persecution as there is with Crimean Tatars, who are mostly Muslim.

You are aware of the element of religious nationalism in Russian policy since the SU collapsed, I take it?

I've heard this was something being pushed by Putin and that Dugin guy. Not sure how that would work in practice.

 

[treelover]

Post Sovjet Russia really could have done with a proper Peace & Reconciliation process. Why that never happened might be an interesting discussion for another thread.

Yes, instead the carpet baggers and finance advisers such as the now 'anti-capitalist queen' Noreena Hertz poured on.

 

[thriller]

sanctions now in place

 

[ViolentPanda]

Poland had anti-jewish pogroms after WW2, and its history of anti-semiticism is right up there with Russia and Germany. It wasn't a total coincidence that most of the worst murder camps were on Polish soil. Not an awful lot of jews left there to get stressed out about getting reunified with Germany.

The Polish state, of course, still has clenched arse-cheeks about Jewish claims on property and other forms of reparation, whereas Germany at least has dealt/is still dealing with many such issues, which hasn't been helpful to taming Polish "establishment" anti-Semitism.
As for "up there with Russia and Germany", personally I'd go for "Russia and France", because French and Russian anti-Jewish legislation was a lot longer-running than Germany's was. Hitler re-started something that had been legislatively-dead in Germany for over 80 years, whereas the Tsarist empire still had anti-Jewish legislation in statute at the time of the Revolution, and France only got rid of theirs post-Dreyfus, when it had become publicly untenable.

 

[seventh bullet]

It was getting bloody close to the technical definition and Chechens might well think that if the Russians could get away with it, they'd have suffered the same fate as the Circassians whose treatment by the Russian Czarist regime in the second half of the 19th C was definitely a genocide as far as I read the definition - this was arguably the precursor to the (now) better-known Armenian genocide during WW1 which was arguably a form of retaliation for it.

Can you give some examples from that conflict (I'm assuming we're both thinking about the second war, with Kadyrov Snr and Jnr on side)?

The aim was the destruction of Ichkeria's de facto independence and the re-establishment of Moscow's control in an area of geopolitical importance to them as well as a demonstration of just how limited autonomy is for the various republics of the Russian Federation. Sections of the local Chechen powerful were persuaded to join them, to administer the republic and assist in the crushing of the rebels. As brutal as it was, it wasn't genocide.

 

[kebabking]

frogwoman - thought you'd be interested in this. Moldovan Deputy Foreign Minister decided that today would be as good a day as any to visit NATO headquarters in Brussels.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_108028.htm?selectedLocale=en

well, its a sunny day, flowers are out, nice beer etc...

 

[stowpirate]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26610107

German Media:

He adds that a military response can no longer be entirely ruled out: "It is high time that Europeans stopped dismissing a confrontation with Russia as completely unrealistic."

I think he is not of a generation that understands what could happen if some idiot pushed the button. My money would be on the US first strike after Nato German troops on the ground took revenge for the Great Patriotic War?

 

[butchersapron]

Fantasy land stuff.

 

[stowpirate]

Fantasy land stuff.

You mean the hysterical media response or me being sarcastic

 

[butchersapron]

His comments.

 

[camouflage]

sanctions now in place

That'll show them. There's nothing TheInternationalCommunity can't fix with a bit of drone-strike diplomacy and some well applied sanctions. I think the next step should be to apprehend that brute Putin and have him up before the ICC as an example to others.