Ukraine

[camouflage]

Crimean Tatars are traditionally supportive of Ukraine because of their history when the entire population were deported by Stalin in 1944, they were only allowed to return to Crimea in the 80s. There's a paper which I read about this some time ago which I'll dig out when I'm back at home.

However even in Ukraine they still face discrimination as they are Muslim and have a different language, culture, etc. In Crimea they're still discriminated against and often live in extremely bad housing conditions even compared to a lot of post Soviet housing which can be very bad.

So similar to the Roma then. Are there Roma as well in the area also getting nervous?

 

[butchersapron]

I tell you, if this plane turns out to have been taken by circassian nationalists then we're into a whole new ball game!!

 

[frogwoman]

Fair nuff, but since their return from the exile of Stalins persecution, are they still actively persecuted by the current Kremlin regime? Is there some kind of Tartaristan nationalist movement going on mixed up in this Ukraine mess?

No. There were fears of "Islamist extremism" among the Crimean Tatars when they started returning to the island but they are actually a pretty secular bunch of people - they are just (understandably because of the history) opposed to Russian rule. Actually the Soviet Union did persecute Muslims in general pretty severely.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair nuff, but since their return from the exile of Stalins persecution, are they still actively persecuted by the current Kremlin regime? Is there some kind of Tartaristan nationalist movement going on mixed up in this Ukraine mess?

No, because they're in a different country! But the genocide of a Muslim group in the Russian federation - the Chechens - doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[camouflage]

No. There were fears of "Islamist extremism" among the Crimean Tatars when they started returning to the island but they are actually a pretty secular bunch of people - they are just (understandably because of the history) opposed to Russian rule. Actually the Soviet Union did persecute Muslims in general pretty severely.

Post Sovjet Russia really could have done with a proper Peace & Reconciliation process. Why that never happened might be an interesting discussion for another thread.

 

[frogwoman]

No, because they're in a different country! But the genocide of a Muslim group in the Russian federation - the Chechens - doesn't inspire confidence.

I wouldn't call it genocide, (and actually Tatarstan which is largely Muslim has actually done relatively well in the post soviet period and the majority don't want to be independent) but yes.

 

[camouflage]

No, because they're in a different country! But the genocide of a Muslim group in the Russian federation - the Chechens - doesn't inspire confidence.

Re Chechnya, my understanding is that started out as a pretty secular movement for independence, that became more islamized as the sense got bombed out of people.

 

[frogwoman]

So similar to the Roma then. Are there Roma as well in the area also getting nervous?

Well imagine how Jewish people in Poland would react if there was a referendum in the parts of Poland which had been taken from Germany during the war and the result was that they chose to be a part of Germany again. What happened to the Tatars was fucking horrific and given the discrimination that they suffer and the fact they have no political power and are discriminated against leads the fact they want to stay as part of Ukraine etc to be completely understandable.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well imagine how Jewish people in Poland would react if there was a referendum in the parts of Poland which had been taken from Germany during the war and the result was that they chose to be a part of Germany again. What happened to the Tatars was fucking horrific and given the discrimination that they suffer and the fact they have no political power and are discriminated against leads the fact they want to stay as part of Ukraine etc to be completely understandable.

Yep. they've seen progress within Ukraine. Understandably they see that progress as in jeopardy.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep. they've seen progress within Ukraine. Understandably they see that progress as in jeopardy.

Well not just that but who is not going to be "united with Russia together".

 

[seventh bullet]

No, because they're in a different country! But the genocide of a Muslim group in the Russian federation - the Chechens - doesn't inspire confidence.

It hasn't been genocide.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep. they've seen progress within Ukraine. Understandably they see that progress as in jeopardy.

I think an uncertain political situation is gonna affect them either way, if Crimea stays as part of Ukraine they may be targeted by "patriots" anyway ...

 

[camouflage]

Well imagine how Jewish people in Poland would react if there was a referendum in the parts of Poland which had been taken from Germany during the war and the result was that they chose to be a part of Germany again. What happened to the Tatars was fucking horrific and given the discrimination that they suffer and the fact they have no political power and are discriminated against leads the fact they want to stay as part of Ukraine etc to be completely understandable.

So they aren't worried about the regime in Kiev in terms of people like Svoboda and Provy Sector etc?

eta, you just answered above.

The devil they know has left the building it seems, only brand new devils available for the Tartar, a Rock devil and a Hard Place devil. And maybe a Deep Blue Sea devil too.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It hasn't been genocide.

Systematic massacres. Hundreds of thousands dead. An attempt to destroy a sense of identity.

 

[seventh bullet]

Systematic massacres. Hundreds of thousands dead. An attempt to destroy a sense of identity.

The Russian government has not been genocidal there. Lets not loosely use terms for conflicts we don't really understand, eh?

 

[frogwoman]

So they aren't worried about the regime in Kiev in terms of people like Svoboda and Provy Sector etc?

Yes.

But bear in mind the authorities in Kiev have always had very limited control over the Crimean peninsula.

 

[butchersapron]

Re Chechnya, my understanding is that started out as a pretty secular movement for independence, that became more islamized as the sense got bombed out of people.

By who?

 

[camouflage]

By who?

By Yelcin of course, then again in a continuation war when Putin ended it, and installed a local strong-man in power. Who by the way is pretty conservative in islamic terms himself apparently.

 

[butchersapron]

By Yelcin of course, then again in a continuation war when Putin ended it.

By individuals? Not by the russian state and the interests behind it that you are so lax about challenging?

 

[camouflage]

By individuals? Not by the russian state and the interests behind it that you are so lax about challenging?

Well, the office of president is the decision maker about what the Russian state should do next no? I'm sure they all have their shady bakers and allies behind the scenes. At the end of the day though the buck's gotta stop somewhere.

Seems to me everything Russia does is brutal, it's a vast nation with a rich and disturbing history. I really don't see what logic says making Russia feel threatened and like it has to 'do stuff about stuff' off the table is a good idea. Place is pretty much all hammer.

 

[butchersapron]

Well, the office of president is the decision maker about what the Russian state should do next no? I'm sure they all have their shady bakers and allies behind the scenes. At the end of the day though the bucks gotta stop somewhere.

Seems to me everything Russia does is brutal, it's a vast nation with a rich and disturbing history. I really don't see what logic says making Russia feel threatened and like it has to 'do stuff about stuff' off the table is a good idea. Place is pretty much all hammer.

Hammer of the nations. And you want to get closer to the hammer?

 

[DotCommunist]

Well, the office of president is the decision maker about what the Russian state should do next no? I'm sure they all have their shady bakers and allies behind the scenes. At the end of the day though the buck's gotta stop somewhere.

Seems to me everything Russia does is brutal, it's a vast nation with a rich and disturbing history. I really don't see what logic says making Russia feel threatened and like it has to 'do stuff about stuff' off the table is a good idea. Place is pretty much all hammer.

Fruit T Bun and his Gingerbread Sex Dolls?

 

[camouflage]

Hammer of the nations. And you want to get closer to the hammer?

No, I want to keep things nice and procedural, with elections and negotiations and debate. Not putches and coups and the summary sweeping away of political processes. Then justifying it all with delusional and hypocritical star-wars-esque good-guy/bad-guy simplifications of the problem.

 

[frogwoman]

So they aren't worried about the regime in Kiev in terms of people like Svoboda and Provy Sector etc?

I was referring to Russian far-righters when i talked about being targetted by "patriots" if Crimea doesn't become a part of Russia tbh but yeah.

Crimea has always had a huge amount of autonomy within Ukraine.

 

[camouflage]

Fruit T Bun and his Gingerbread Sex Dolls?

Yes, they moves in the shadows, the shady bakers have their own angle on all this. Ukraine is the bread-basket after all...

 

[likesfish]

Ok they werent genociadal but certainly made the yanks in fajujah look like social workers

 

[butchersapron]

No, I want to keep things nice and procedural, with elections and negotiations and debate. Not putches and coups and the summary sweeping away of political processes. Then justifying it all with delusional and hypocritical star-wars-esque good-guy/bad-guy simplifications of the problem.

Few thousand bodies on the ground, keep it all nice and legal like.

 

[DotCommunist]

Yes, they moves in the shadows, the shady bakers have their own angle on all this. Ukraine is the bread-basket after all...

putins grandfather was a cook in the tsarist service, presumably he baked the odd thing...all coming together

 

[camouflage]

Few thousand bodies on the ground, keep it all nice and legal like.

Er... at what point during or leading up to the Euro Maidan have there been few thousand bodies on the ground?

 

[butchersapron]

Er... at what point during the Maidan have there been few thousand bodies on the ground?

Is this some sort of joke?