Ukraine

[J Ed]

The Graunid livefeed is showing this tweet (they can identify flags accurately when they want to..)

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Oh I realise that, but was it a part of a centralised policy of expansion or was it just individual arseholes trying to make a buck here or there (more there than here)? And also as you mention they failed each time which sort of hints at the possibility that it was just individual groups of "entrepreneurs" that were pushing north.

I think that it starts with 'entrepeneurs', who then set up businesses etc. Don't forget that Manifest Destiny was the standard operating procedure in the US back then.

When the locals become restive, there is now a reason for the home govt to consider whether or not it is necessary to 'protect US nationals and US interests'. The concern about the US trying to infiltrate and annex British Columbia was the impetus behind the building of the Trans Canada Railroad. The same process occurring in Southern Alberta etc was also part of the reason behind the formation of the RNWMP, precursor to the RCMP.

Re the 'entrepeneurs' followed later by troops, it's arguable that a broadly similar process is visible in Ukraine right now.

 

[frogwoman]

Because the Russian government is far right. Of the 14 defining characteristics of fascism, I'd say Putin's Russia meets 9 or 10 of them.
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4. Supremacy of the Military
6. Controlled Mass Media
7. Obsession with National Security
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections

Those aren't the defining characteristics of fascism that's a list someone put on the internet to prove the us government is fascist

 

[ferrelhadley]

Ethno-nationalism is a terrifying beast. Putin and the tomfools in Kiev think they have those demons of hell on a leash and that they can always hold that leash tight.

One gun shot in the wrong place and those demons are lose.

 

[DairyQueen]

I'm not joking about the Pig War. There were various situations in Canada where US traders would come north, then start acting as if they controlled the territory. The likely intent was to extend US influence north of the 49th. They built forts on the southern prairies; and in the Fraser Canyon of BC, they started conflicts with, and killed, local indigenous people. They were successfully pushed back each time.

Ah yes, the good ol' Canadian Crown defending their native folk.

 

[Gramsci]

i realise its a somewhat wide question, with all manner of nuances and exceptions and weird and wonderful sub-plots and generalisations, but what are the historical dynamics regarding who likes who, who hates who, and who's on ok terms, but has baggage with who in that part of the world?

is there a post-Soviet solidarity between the old satelite states that trumps previous emnity, or have they gone back to business as usual, or what?

From my knowledge of present day East Europeans, in particular the Poles, they support the Ukrainian people against the Russians. ( And I say people as East Europeans are also critical of there own states governments. They have sympathy for ordinary Ukrainians who want to be part of Europe.)

Despite the history of the the Poles being ethnically cleansed from areas of what was is now Western Ukraine during WW2 by Banderas lot. Before WW2 parts of present day western Ukraine were part of Poland. Present day Poland has no wish to alter borders again.

A lot of Poles still are suspicious of the Russian governments due to long history of occupation by Russian Empire and Soviet Union. What happened previously between Ukrainians and Poles is secondary to suspicion of Russian governments. (Or Russians in general as a Polish friend of mine dislikes the lot of them. Bit harsh. She does not like Germans either. Her Grandmother told her all about the Nazi occupation).

 

[Gramsci]

Svoboda: An Extraordinary Journey (with the Graunid)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/ukraine-uprising-fascist-coup-grassroots-movement



Fantastic old fashioned marketing there - fascism as mere anti-Communism.

Some of the comments at end make interesting reading.

One poster linked up this article from C4 as different take on the rise of the far right.

In Guardian article:

Nayem, Haran and others in Kiev argue that the Kremlin's description of a neo-Nazi power-grab is unfounded. A better critique, they say, is that the politicians now in charge are from the same political class that has failed Ukraine in the past,

From previous posts here and looking at RT ( with care) looks to me that the ordinary Ukrainians are going to get the Orange Revolution again. Big hopes then they ended up with a different group of Oligarchs in power. The blond out of prisons party also have leading roles on provisional government. A few Oligarchs allied to the blond out of prisons party have been given regional posts in local government.

 

[co-op]

From my knowledge of present day East Europeans, in particular the Poles, they support the Ukrainian people against the Russians. ( And I say people as East Europeans are also critical of there own states governments. They have sympathy for ordinary Ukrainians who want to be part of Europe.)

Despite the history of the the Poles being ethnically cleansed from areas of what was is now Western Ukraine during WW2 by Banderas lot. Before WW2 parts of present day western Ukraine were part of Poland. Present day Poland has no wish to alter borders again.

Hmm. There's still a pretty strong theme of "hating Ukrainians" in Polish national culture (for their support for German Nazis anti-Polish activities during WW2). Many thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of Ukrainians and Poles died during the war between the two countries that was fought while both were under German occupation (the occupiers of course facilitating this war). Numbers are always guesses of course and it's pretty hard to separate who killed who, but 'Ukrainian collaboration' with the Nazis is assumed by many (?most) Polish people.

This is one of the problems for western Ukraine and many other parts of eastern europe - the shadow of WW2 still hangs over it. Since nationalist narratives always demand love of the nation's history, what side your nation's elites ended up on in WW2 still determines quite a significant chunk of your contemporary political narrative. So western Ukrainian nationalism kind of demands love of Bandera and co, just as Croatian nationalism demands love for Pavelic and the Ustase etc etc. And you see powerful far-right parties emerge very easily in German WW2 allies like Hungary. You end up with de facto right-wing national narratives that are hard to escape from.

Similar pro-Soviet (now mutated into pro-Russian) narratives in other countries and regions - Serbia, Eastern Ukraine. So whereas 'being patriotic' is always likely to mean you are either right-wing or drifting that way, in some countries and regions it pretty much demands that you are; it's why things like the pulling down of Lenin statues resonates so loudly.

 

[Idris2002]

Just because I don't like it when Russia disregards International law doesn't mean I cheerlead for the US if they do similar. But tbh I can't remember the last time the US actually annexed a part of a neighbouring country, Texas was maybe the last occasion.

Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam.

 

[Idris2002]

Only Puerto Rico is close to being a neighbouring state and it as with Guam came to have their relationship with the USA as a result of the Spanish-American war, American Samoa was the result of a tiff between the US and Germany. So not exactly great but still date back to the end of the 19th century/start of 20th century and don't involve the military occupation of a neighbouring states territory and the annexation of that territory.

I see JC3 beat me to it. Hawaii is the nearest relatively recent example of an expansionist America, and even that isn't that comparable to what Russia does in its 'near abroad', given that the annexation of Hawaii started with white settlers moving in as commercial farmers into what was then the independent kingdom of Hawaii.

 

[DotCommunist]

sending peacekeeping troops to the bay of pigs

 

[frogwoman]

co-op What ViolentPanda says about Ukrainian nationalism is partially true and it's also sort of where Leninist ideas of "national liberation" being a progressive ideology become problematic imo because they don't apply it to the countries controlled by the soviet union.

I thought when living in Moldova that the best political development that is likely to come out of there may be a sort of "moldovan nationalism" or at least national pride because so many of the people I met didn't seem to be proud of their country at all, they were sometimes quite shocked when they said that I liked it here, they were ashamed of living there, the way that they spoke which wasn't like "real Romanian" or whatever, a lot of them regarded themselves as uneducated and other countries as better and talked about how Romanians in Romania speak "properly", there seem to be competing Romanian and Russian nationalism and there isn't a sort of "civic nationalism" the way that there is in the UK.

there isn't any political party expressing these sort of ideas either let alone left-wing ideas. The mainstream political parties are so polarised between Romania/"the west" which leads to a sort of uneasy alliance between EU-supporting liberals and fascism - and Russian nationalism/Soviet nostalgia

I also think there's a real risk of a backlash in some of these countries against the Russian minority which is really really worrying, especially the Baltic states.

not saying that moldovan nationalism would necessarily be great, but that's one of the things i noticed when living there ...

 

[frogwoman]

Sorry for going on about MD in a thread about Ukraine again

 

[camouflage]

I think that it starts with 'entrepeneurs', who then set up businesses etc. Don't forget that Manifest Destiny was the standard operating procedure in the US back then.

When the locals become restive, there is now a reason for the home govt to consider whether or not it is necessary to 'protect US nationals and US interests'. The concern about the US trying to infiltrate and annex British Columbia was the impetus behind the building of the Trans Canada Railroad. The same process occurring in Southern Alberta etc was also part of the reason behind the formation of the RNWMP, precursor to the RCMP.

Fascinating.

 

[butchersapron]

Those aren't the defining characteristics of fascism that's a list someone put on the internet to prove the us government is fascist

Yes, it's a worthless conspiracy list. And newsweek of all places used it last week - complete with a a link to rense - which, i suspect is where Tom saw it.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[camouflage]

From my knowledge of present day East Europeans, in particular the Poles, they support the Ukrainian people against the Russians. ( And I say people as East Europeans are also critical of there own states governments. They have sympathy for ordinary Ukrainians who want to be part of Europe.)

Despite the history of the the Poles being ethnically cleansed from areas of what was is now Western Ukraine during WW2 by Banderas lot. Before WW2 parts of present day western Ukraine were part of Poland. Present day Poland has no wish to alter borders again.

A lot of Poles still are suspicious of the Russian governments due to long history of occupation by Russian Empire and Soviet Union. What happened previously between Ukrainians and Poles is secondary to suspicion of Russian governments. (Or Russians in general as a Polish friend of mine dislikes the lot of them. Bit harsh. She does not like Germans either. Her Grandmother told her all about the Nazi occupation).

Apropos Polish paranoia...

There's an interesting Polish legend about a Golden Army that sleeps under a mountain, cradling broad-swords in readiness for "when the time comes" to awaken and come to the defence of the Poles and destroy their enemie. But the Golden Warriors wield such terrifying power that should they ever awake, it would be grim times indeed for all concerned. WW2 doesn't seem to have counted as a serious enough threat so... I guess things would have to be pretty fucked up indeed.

All of which got me wondering whether Poland actually has NATO nukes stationed in it's territory, making the legend of the Golden Army under a Mountain basically True now. Hope not, they seem to get a bit hot-headed when it comes to the Russians. Happily I don't think there are nukes in Poland, and even if so I doubt Warsaw has control of them.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26609667

 

[frogwoman]

In a way this sort of reminds me of Kosovo except this time it's the EU talking about national sovereignty and the need to respect borders etc.

 

[camouflage]

In a way this sort of reminds me of Kosovo except this time it's the EU talking about national sovereignty and the need to respect borders etc.

Naturally they deny any comparison. The 'international community' (through it's spokesman the USG) was heard to remark:

"What the @&&$! I... You... It's... Now look here you, that's absolutely and completely besides the point!"

Difference of course is Kosovo was unilaterally declared independent, whereas in Crimea, it's being declared by an illegal act of unsanctioned democracy by use of weaponized ballot boxes of mass destruction.

 

[frogwoman]

Frankly though if I was a Crimean Tatar I'd fe feeling very very worried right now.

 

[camouflage]

Frankly though if I was a Crimean Tatar I'd fe feeling very very worried right now.

But why particularly, are Tartars actively persecuted in Russia? I know there are fascists on both sides of this mess...

 

[butchersapron]

But why particularly, are Tartars actively persecuted in Russia? I know there are fascists on both sides of this mess...

Is this some sort of joke?

 

[butchersapron]

The crimean constitution is supposed to guarantee each citizen a bit of land and other associated rights. Guess which part of the population the political representatives of the russianphone majority choose to deny this right to?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But why particularly, are Tartars actively persecuted in Russia? I know there are fascists on both sides of this mess...

They've been recognised as a group by Ukraine. Prior to that, they had been deported to central Asia by Stalin. Only returned in the 90s.

 

[camouflage]

Is this some sort of joke?

No, apron, it's a question. Frogwoman may provide a reasonably ellucidating answer. Have you a problem with that, or am I not permitted to ask any questions because I am known to have enjoyed a science fiction novel or two and have expressed an interest in technologies you don't like?

 

[frogwoman]

But why particularly, are Tartars actively persecuted in Russia? I know there are fascists on both sides of this mess...

Crimean Tatars are traditionally supportive of Ukraine because of their history when the entire population were deported by Stalin in 1944, they were only allowed to return to Crimea in the 80s. There's a paper which I read about this some time ago which I'll dig out when I'm back at home.

However even in Ukraine they still face discrimination as they are Muslim and have a different language, culture, etc. In Crimea they're still discriminated against and often live in extremely bad housing conditions even compared to a lot of post Soviet housing which can be very bad.

 

[butchersapron]

No, apron, it's a question. Frogwoman may provide a reasonably ellucidating answer. Have you a problem with that, or am I not permitted to ask any questions because I am known to have enjoyed a science fiction novel or two and have expressed an interest in technologies you don't like?

Three weeks into this and you ask that question? I'm sorry, but that slapdash attitude is what's causing the problem here.

 

[camouflage]

They've been recognised as a group by Ukraine. Prior to that, they had been deported to central Asia by Stalin. Only returned in the 90s.

Fair nuff, but since their return from the exile of Stalins persecution, are they still actively persecuted by the current Kremlin regime? Is there some kind of Tartaristan nationalist movement going on mixed up in this Ukraine mess?

 

[frogwoman]

The crimean constitution is supposed to guarantee each citizen a bit of land and other associated rights. Guess which part of the population the political representatives of the russianphone majority choose to deny this right to?

Yep, this was to stop Crimean Tatars returning home and wanting their land back.