Ukraine

[ViolentPanda]

I was full of righteous indignation at the partiality of the bbc running with the EU line on the ukrainian junta, until I happened to see a itv news report. Blimey Charlie!

As has also been reflected on this thread, there's no nuance whatsoever in the positions for and against being stated, just simplistic crap.

 

[J Ed]

As has also been reflected on this thread, there's no nuance whatsoever in the positions for and against being stated, just simplistic crap.

What's your opinion of the BNP?

 

[ViolentPanda]

What's your opinion of the BNP?

The same as it's always been (see threads ad nauseam). I don't like them, and when I was younger my dislike of the NF, BM and BNP extended to physical violence against them.
However, my dislike and distaste for the hard right has never extended to "no platform". I'm a firm believer that if you can't elucidate a counter-argument to what the BNP and their like come out with, you've already lost the half the battle. I believe that "no platforming" fascists, neo-fascists and neo-Nazis, while it may make the people physically denying them a platform feel good, also helps the right to reinforce the "us and them" mentality they already have.

 

[J Ed]

The same as it's always been (see threads ad nauseam). I don't like them, and when I was younger my dislike of the NF, BM and BNP extended to physical violence against them.
However, my dislike and distaste for the hard right has never extended to "no platform". I'm a firm believer that if you can't elucidate a counter-argument to what the BNP and their like come out with, you've already lost the half the battle. I believe that "no platforming" fascists, neo-fascists and neo-Nazis, while it may make the people physically denying them a platform feel good, also helps the right to reinforce the "us and them" mentality they already have.

When fascists are the government I'm not sure that we are still within the realms of talking about no platform, which is an idea that I also think has its limitations. This is the first post-war government in Europe with significant fascist participation, what is happening is terrifying and I can understand why people are confused at you minimising the importance of just how terrifying the current situation is.

 

[barney_pig]

When fascists are the government I'm not sure that we are still within the realms of talking about no platform, which is an idea that I also think has its limitations. This is the first post-war government in Europe with significant fascist participation, what is happening is terrifying and I can understand why people are confused at you minimising the importance of just how terrifying the current situation is.

There were significant fascist presences in the Spanish, Portuguese and Greek governments throughout the post war period until the mid seventies, and in more modern times berlosconi's firSt italian govt. had a large MSI/ AN component.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Big rally in Moscow against Putin's invasion of Crimea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26593249

 

[ViolentPanda]

When fascists are the government I'm not sure that we are still within the realms of talking about no platform, which is an idea that I also think has its limitations. This is the first post-war government in Europe with significant fascist participation, what is happening is terrifying and I can understand why people are confused at you minimising the importance of just how terrifying the current situation is.

Sorry, but that's ahistorical nonsense. Post-war Italy and Greece had fascist participation "up the wazoo" in their parliaments, as well as behind the scenes in their bureaucracies, and West German bureaucracy was rife from top to bottom with unrepentant fascists. Holland and Belgium have both had fascist (and latterly "new right") minorities in their parliaments too.

I'm not minimising anything. I'm entirely aware of the dangers of totalitarian politics to Ukraine, as I was taught about it from an early age. My point is this - you can't build a democracy by not allowing democracy. Anyone who believes that you can, hasn't learnt from the plethora of history's examples to the contrary.

 

[treelover]

Kiev claims it repelled Russian troops in south Ukraine - live updates
Live
The defence ministry says soldiers repelled a Russian attempt to infiltrate its territory beyond Crimea

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...shes-as-tensions-rise-before-crimea-vote-live

is the Guardian hyping things up or is this serious?

 

[treelover]

Whats the juxaposition about, Nazis?, bit off as he is Jewish.

 

[treelover]

military scrambled aircraft and paratroops on Saturday to repel an attempt by Russian forces to enter a long spit of land belonging to a region adjacent to Crimea, Ukraine’s defence ministry said.
“Units of Ukraine’s armed forces today...repelled an attempt by servicemen of the armed forces of the Russian Federation to enter the territory of Kherson region on Arbatskaya Strelka,” a ministry statement said. “This was repelled immediately.”
It said the Ukrainian military used aircraft, ground forces and its aeromobile battalion in the operation. The territory in question is a long spit of land running parallel to the east of Ukraine’s Crimea peninsula, now controlled by Russian forces.

Actually it may be serious

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

you can't build a democracy by not allowing democracy. Anyone who believes that you can, hasn't learnt from the plethora of history's examples to the contrary.

The thing is, this new Ukrainian government wasn't elected democratically. It was ushered in on the back of a coup in which the organisation fascists was the decisive factor . The opposition would have been crushed if it wasn't for the Right Sector's willingness to use extreme violence. I didn't see klitschko out on the barricades swinging iron chains and shooting at police. What happens when things begin to go in a direction the far-right aren't keen on?

 

[DairyQueen]

My point is this - you can't build a democracy by not allowing democracy. Anyone who believes that you can, hasn't learnt from the plethora of history's examples to the contrary.

... that might be true but Svoboda got around 10% of the vote and find themselves in charge of defense and the police (Yatsenuk got less than 7% of the popular vote). The Party of the Regions and Yanokovych were more popular shortly before he fled. There are reports of the new government setting up new military units and employing their foot soldiers with this mandate.

The chief beneficiaries of the coup look like Svoboda and maybe Russia. All this for potential EU membership (which was ten or so years away before the crisis). It is one hell of a gamble.

 

[J Ed]

There were significant fascist presences in the Spanish, Portuguese and Greek governments throughout the post war period until the mid seventies, and in more modern times berlosconi's firSt italian govt. had a large MSI/ AN component.

I think that the Spanish example is fair, the Portuguese one decidedly isn't and I don't know enough about the Greek junta to comment.

 

[Dillinger4]

I think that the Spanish example is fair, the Portuguese one decidedly isn't and I don't know enough about the Greek junta to comment.

Greece definitely.

 

[J Ed]

Well, this is getting scary

Russia said Saturday it was reviewing “many requests” for protection from people in Ukraine, reports AFP.

The statement from Moscow, coming on the eve of a hugely controversial Sunday referendum on Crimea’s fate, indicates that Russia may deploy troops to elsewhere in Ukraine besides the Russian-speaking peninsula.

“Russia is receiving many requests to protect peaceful citizens” in Ukraine, the foreign ministry said in a statement. “These requests will be considered.”

“Militants including from Pravy Sektor are continuing to behave in an outrageous manner,” it said, referring to the radical Right Sector group whose members were at the forefront of last month’s protests that ended in the ouster of pro-Kremlin president Viktor Yanukovych.

“We are getting alarming reports that a column with armed mercenaries from the Right Sector... has left Kharkov for Donetsk and Lugansk,” the ministry said, referring to Russian-speaking cities in eastern Ukraine.

The foreign ministry, claiming that a garment factory, apparently in Ukraine, was producing Russian military uniforms, hinted at possible action by provocateurs posing as Russian soldiers.

Two people were killed and several were injured in Kharkiv when nationalists opened fire on a group of men trying to storm their headquarters late on Friday.

The Kharkiv clashes came after a young man was killed in Donetsk during rallies.

Following the latest attack, the Russian foreign ministry urged Ukraine to outlaw nationalist groups.

Earlier this week Moscow said it reserved the right to protect its compatriots in Ukraine in case of attacks.

 

[Baboonking]

50,000 protest in Moscow anti-war march


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...any-requests-for-protection-will-look-at-them

 

[J Ed]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...shes-as-tensions-rise-before-crimea-vote-live

I’ve just come back from a rather bizarre “press conference” of international observers for the referendum. It was 45 minutes before there were any questions, as the six people present mainly went on political rants against US hegemony in the world. All said the referendum in Crimea was legitimate.
Bela Kovacs, an MEP from the far-right Hungarian party Jobbik, said that everything he had seen on Saturday conformed to international standards and he expected the vote to be free and fair.

He said there were no British observers at the referendum. The BNP’s Nick Griffin “really wanted to come, but we persuaded him not to”, he said. He added that Griffin planned to stand for president of the European Commission: “Just wait until you see what he has planned,” he said.

Serge Trifkovic, a Serbian-American writer, was the most entertaining, speaking in extraordinary metaphor and railing against the west.

“What is sauce for Kosovo’s goose is certainly sauce for Crimea’s gander,” he said, to the dismay of the Russian translator. When asked if he had been paid to attend, he said that if he were looking for money he would have approached the CIA. The observers, he said, were “as poor as church mice”.

It's a fash field day on both sides.

 

[yield]

France to review military cooperation with Russia in future sanctions
Paris Reuters Sat Mar 15, 2014

Former President Nicolas Sarkozy had hailed the signing of the Mistral [1.2 billion euro helicopter carrier] contract as evidence the Cold War was over. The contract has created about 1,000 jobs in France.

The first carrier, the Vladivostok, is due to be delivered by the last quarter of 2014. The second one, named Sebastopol after Crimea's crucial seaport and illustrating its importance to Moscow, is supposed to be delivered by 2016.

The Vladivostok was tested at sea for three days on March 5 after setting sail from the Saint-Nazaire shipyard in western France where a Russian crew is currently being trained.

In a phone call on Saturday, French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel discussed both nations' "reviews of bilateral military cooperation with Russia," Pentagon spokesman Rear Admiral John Kirby said.

The United States suspended all military engagements with Russia, including port visits, on March 3 and Hagel earlier this week said Washington was taking a fresh look at American reliance on Russian rocket engines.

Russia starts military exercises near Ukraine
Moscow Reuters Thu Mar 13, 2014

Separately, the ministry said Russia had sent six Su-27 jet fighters and three military transport planes to ally Belarus, responding to a request prompted by joint U.S.-Polish exercises in NATO nation Poland, Interfax reported.

 

[classicdish]

...This is the first post-war government in Europe with significant fascist participation, what is happening is terrifying...

What have the Yatsenyuk government done that is "terrifying"?

 

[TomUS]

Ron Paul sides with Russia, disagreeing with his son.

The former Republican congressman and three-time presidential candidate Ron Paul has launched a scathing attack on what he calls a US-backed coup in Ukraine, insisting the Crimean people have the right to align their territory with Moscow and characterising sanctions against Russia as “an act of war”.

The libertarian guru’s remarks in an interview with the Guardian are almost diametrically opposed to those of his son, the Republican presidential hopeful Rand Paul, who has called for stiff penalties against Russia and declared: “If I were president, I wouldn’t let [Russian president] Vladimir Putin get away with it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/15/ron-paul-crimea-russia-sanctions-act-of-war

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I wonder what Rand would do: launch nukes?

 

[TomUS]

I wonder what Rand would do: launch nukes?

He's a nut ball as is his father. Rand is supposed to be a libertarian. One of their core beliefs is to avoid foreign military entanglements. But he's running for Pres. so has to act tough to get the Repub nomination.

 

[J Ed]

What have the Yatsenyuk government done that is "terrifying"?

It's hardly had the chance to do anything yet, has it?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's hardly had the chance to do anything yet, has it?

He was responding to this comment by you:

just how terrifying the current situation is.

Anticipatory terror?

 

[goldenecitrone]

I think a possible Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine is the most worrying thing at the moment.

 

[J Ed]

On their live feed, The Guardian is mistaking an anti-Semitic article from a site called pravda.ru with an actual Pravda newspaper article http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/16/crimea-referendum-polls-open-live

Edit: it's been up for a while now and the error has been pointed out several times in the comments, are they deliberately leaving it up to smear the 'other side'?

 

[DairyQueen]

What have the Yatsenyuk government done that is "terrifying"?

I personally don't trust very much the news from Ukraine, but perhaps the two main issues that are credible are;

• The mainstream party of the Russian speakers (Party of the Regions) has been banned in a number of western Ukrainian oblasts.
• As far as I can tell from media reporting and the activist blogs, Svoboda are almost certainly infiltrating both the army and the police. We can only guess to what extent and what the ramifications of this have been or will be.

The other issue is that reports of violence and arrests against all sorts of groups and individuals. I very much doubt any of these crimes will be investigated properly, so I am personally skeptical on the reporting of them.

This makes no judgment on whether the Russian government's response was justifiable.

 

[frogwoman]

Pravda just means 'truth' and, well...

 

[J Ed]

A bit late but a bit more on far-right parties from the EU observing the referendum, looks like in the end only Jobbik accepted the invitation

http://euobserver.com/news/123453

The Russian government has invited some of Europe's far-right parties to observe this weekend's referendum in Crimea.

The leader of France’s National Front party, Marine Le Pen, told press at the European Parliament in Strasbourg on Wednesday (12 March) that her executive has not yet decided whether to go.

The Austrian Freedom party, a National Front ally, also got an invitation.

Crimeans will go to the polls on Sunday to pick one of two options: “Are you in favour of Crimea becoming a constituent territory of the Russian Federation?” or “Are you in favour of restoring Crimea’s 1992 constitution? [on semi-autonomy inside Ukraine].”

Le Pen voiced sympathy for Russia, even if it opts to annex the territory after Sunday’s result.

"Crimea is not like the rest of the country … it is very closely linked to Russia,” she said, adding: “We have to take account of the history of Crimea.”

"From the outset of the crisis we [the National Front] have said that Ukraine should maintain its sovereignty but allow the three main regions to have a lot of autonomy.”

She described the prospect of EU economic sanctions against Russia as "dangerous" and echoed Russian propaganda on the new authorities in Kiev.

"We should have some qualms about the new government because it was not elected … We know that there are neo-Nazis and extremists in this government,” she said.

With Europe's far-right keen to play up the Ukrainian crisis as an EU foreign policy blunder, Austrian MEP Andreas Moelzer, from the Freedom Party, told Austrian news agency APA also on Wednesday that he is considering Putin’s offer.

"We are among the few who try to understand Russia," he said.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

A bit late but a bit more on far-right parties from the EU observing the referendum, looks like in the end only Jobbik accepted the invitation

http://euobserver.com/news/123453

Is this because Russia has invited anyone at all to observe the referendum (which by extension would include far-right parties)? Or has Russia focused on inviting the far-right alone? If the latter, why would they do this?