Ukraine

[ViolentPanda]

Well my impression is that you're a dusty old Marxist who sees everything in terms of Class War, and whose understanding of world events between states is shallow and orthodox. In international affairs you basically default to whatever the Tony Blair line would be. Asked about the NUT or something though and I'm sure you're as right-on as Bob Crow ever was.

Your impressions and sureness are based on misperceptions, as would be obvious if you actually bothered to read what was before you, rather than skimming it for buzzwords or phrases to react to.
As for the "Tony Blair" gibe, it's a fairly accurate indication of how off-beam your opinion is.

In my language the words 'Tony Blair' are a grave insult by the way, I have gravely insulted you by saying that you stand next to that.

In which case, why are you as dishonest, and as intellectually bereft in your analyses, as Tony Blair is?

It's obvious what the West has done in the Ukraine, and why. According to your script though it's all about Putin seizing the Sudetanland. As horrid as the Russian state can be, what kind of an idiot looks at these events in the Ukraine and comes to this conclusion? Does Victoria Nuland program you in your sleep or what?

So, something is "obvious" to you, therefore no other narrative has any traction..

Yes, you're certainly not at all credulous, are you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It is, the Poles remember everything.

I've been to Pilsudski's tomb on the Wawel (except his heart which is in Vilnius) always covered in flowers and surrounded by sombre Poles.

And the Ukrainians remember everything about the Poles.

 

[laptop]

Guardian reassuring us there's no real fascism in Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...aine-fascist-protesters-euromaidan?CMP=twt_gu

Not precisely, until they run a leader.

More precisely: Guardian Comment is Free section mimicking Urban75 by offering platforms to, er, all sorts of views.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bliar.

A little bit juvenile, isn't it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Indeed, the Complicit 'Left'. The Left of the Suez Crisis, the Left of Bliars War etc.

Who, by any measurement, were either centrists or rightists.

You don't "get" political nuance, do you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The guy was obviously a corrupt asshole (rare among politicians that). I still don't think it flies to just wreck the political system and have a mob sweep into power and get instant recognition though when elections are only months away and the corruop old bastard was at least negotiating and conceding stuff, doing things like offering the leader of the opposition the prime-ministership etc.

You mean like Mugabe did with offering Tsvangirai the prime ministership of Zim? Worked well, didn't it?
It's called incrementalism. It's a method whereby power elites maintain a handle for as long as they can, while continuing to strip-mine a nation's assets. It also, if accepted by opposition, makes the opposition complicit in the strip-mining, and all these incremental concessions are reversible.

use your fucking loaf, eh?

 

[seventh bullet]

A little bit juvenile, isn't it?

Like a t-shirt with 'McShit' printed on it.

 

[kebabking]

And the Ukrainians remember everything about the Poles.

i realise its a somewhat wide question, with all manner of nuances and exceptions and weird and wonderful sub-plots and generalisations, but what are the historical dynamics regarding who likes who, who hates who, and who's on ok terms, but has baggage with who in that part of the world?

is there a post-Soviet solidarity between the old satelite states that trumps previous emnity, or have they gone back to business as usual, or what?

 

[Belushi]

i realise its a somewhat wide question, with all manner of nuances and exceptions and weird and wonderful sub-plots and generalisations, but what are the historical dynamics regarding who likes who, who hates who, and who's on ok terms, but has baggage with who in that part of the world?

You got a few days spare?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who here has anyone said they approve of the actions of the new government or even that it's legitimate? You understand that it's possible to oppose US/EU interference and the fash friendly government they brought in and to think Putin probably doesn't have the interests of the Ukrainian people at heart and his interventions should therefore also be opposed, right?

Me, I don't approve anything. In my personal opinion, every government in Ukraine has been illegitimate, because they've all only ever been the stooges of a "greater power".

 

[ViolentPanda]

You got a few days spare?

Days? A couple of weeks!

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is not the opinion I have gleaned from the sample of apron posts I've read. I don't have time to sit at the internet all day arguing it out in high-res fine detail, but every time I read an apron post it's him chewing out someone for suggesting that maybe the Russians are not the primary villains in all this.

Historically the Russians have treated Ukraine as a satrapy of a Tsarist, then a Soviet empire. The Russians have a prima facie reason for wishing to exercise direct influence in Ukrainian politics (a Black Sea port for the Russian navy) as well as countless ancillary reasons ranging from favourable commodity-purchase terms to old-fashioned chauvinism. Russia's reaction to EU encroachment has never been about furthering the interests of the states that are encroached upon (which, for all its manifold failures, the EU does by providing a fixed legislative framework within which the state can operate autonomously), and always about securing Mother Russia's best interests.

In other words, any reading that doesn't place the Russians as the "primary villain" is ignoring history, politics and realpolitik.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I haven't seen him supporting the fash-friendly government in Ukraine either.

With regard to "fash-friendly", I'm probably going to be berated for saying this, but if Ukraine is to have any hope of a democratic form of governance, even an imperfect form, then it needs to be a form that incorporates the entire political spectrum, regardless of how distasteful or despicable we might find parts of that spectrum. You can only really beat the hard right by showing that their ideas are fatuous, not by anathematising them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Perhaps. I perceive a deafening silence on aprons part where I'd expect much more criticism of the Wests actions here (well, the US and EU). It's similar to the omission you come across in the media. Reading aprons posts leaves me with the impression it's all those nasty Ruskies again and that's it. Just my opinion.

Are we reading the same thread? There's been plenty of criticism of western impingement from the EU and the US, and of the US and Russia viewing Ukraine as a proxy battlefield for their ideas.

 

[frogwoman]

With regard to "fash-friendly", I'm probably going to be berated for saying this, but if Ukraine is to have any hope of a democratic form of governance, even an imperfect form, then it needs to be a form that incorporates the entire political spectrum, regardless of how distasteful or despicable we might find parts of that spectrum. You can only really beat the hard right by showing that their ideas are fatuous, not by anathematising them.

It will end up de facto supporting slightly nationalist neo-liberalism (not fash, although some of the parties involved were initially fash) then like the coalition of parties which opposed the communist party in Moldova.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here's a thing. Back at the end of the first world war, Marshal Pilsudski led the rebirth of the Polish national independence. His vision for Polish foreign policy in that era was the creation of a vast east european federation or alliance, which be a strong challenge to Russia in the east:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Międzymorze

Does anyone know if this is still widely remembered in Poland these days?

Yep.
Unfortunately (as Pilsudski well knew) there were and are a lot of ancient rivalries and tensions to be got through before any Eastern European Federation could work.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It will end up de facto supporting slightly nationalist neo-liberalism (not fash, although some of the parties involved were initially fash) then like the coalition of parties which opposed the communist party in Moldova.

If they can get out from under pro-Russian gangsterism, then yes. Back when perestroika bedded in and Der Mauer first came down, I used to do a spiel to friends that many of the FSU states would go through a state of political development that would include a swing to the hard right as their economies more or less failed to integrate with "the west", but that they would eventually develop their own approaches to democracy. What I didn't foresee was the likes of the IMF inducing crises that allowed robber-baron capitalism to become the default power mode.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Guardian reassuring us there's no real fascism in Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...aine-fascist-protesters-euromaidan?CMP=twt_gu

There are fascists in Ukraine, just as there are everywhere else.
Whether they have any political traction, or "fascism" is being used as a very simplistic catch-all to describe any nationalism to the right of waving a Ukrainian flag, is the question that needs answering, and it's the question that doesn't serve EU and US interests by being answered.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Like a t-shirt with 'McShit' printed on it.

Hey, that t-shirt was funny!


In 1989.

 

[frogwoman]

If they can get out from under pro-Russian gangsterism, then yes. Back when perestroika bedded in and Der Mauer first came down, I used to do a spiel to friends that many of the FSU states would go through a state of political development that would include a swing to the hard right as their economies more or less failed to integrate with "the west", but that they would eventually develop their own approaches to democracy. What I didn't foresee was the likes of the IMF inducing crises that allowed robber-baron capitalism to become the default power mode.

unfortunately there seems to be a choice between pro-russian gangsterism and in the case of moldova, pro-EU/Romanian gangsterism as well ...

 

[ViolentPanda]

unfortunately there seems to be a choice between pro-russian gangsterism and in the case of moldova, pro-EU/Romanian gangsterism as well ...

If I were Moldovan, then purely instrumentally I'd opt for the pro-EU/Romanian gangsterism on the basis of the relationship being slightly less asymmetric between client and power.

 

[frogwoman]

If I were Moldovan, then purely instrumentally I'd opt for the pro-EU/Romanian gangsterism on the basis of the relationship being slightly less asymmetric between client and power.

actually, to be honest I'm not so sure about that.

But that's another post

 

[where to]

Twitter journalists reporting fatal violence in Donetsk tonight.

 

[J Ed]

Svoboda: An Extraordinary Journey (with the Graunid)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/ukraine-uprising-fascist-coup-grassroots-movement

The party's neofascist past is clear. Founded in 1991 as an anti-Communist movement, Svoboda was previously called the Socio-National Party of Ukraine – a nod to national socialism. Its symbol was Nazi too: a swastika-like Wolfsangel. Tyahnybok dumped the Hitler paraphernalia when he renamed the party Svoboda in 2004, on becoming leader. The same year, however, he was ejected from the mainstream Our Ukraine faction after referring to the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia".

Over the past decade the party appears to have mellowed, eschewing xenophobia, academic commentators suggest. On Monday, the US ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt, said he had been "positively impressed" by Svoboda's evolution in opposition and by its behaviour in the Rada, Ukraine's parliament. "They have demonstrated their democratic bona fides," the ambassador asserted. Svoboda played a leading role in the revolution; 18 of its members were shot dead.

Fantastic old fashioned marketing there - fascism as mere anti-Communism.

 

[goldenecitrone]

See CRs been helping out with the referendum posters in Crimea.

 

[SovietArmy]

Why some so against Crimea referendum. Shall we gave what people want.

 

[treelover]

The group's far-right proclivities are obvious. Some of its footsoldiers dress entirely in black, with military style buzz-cuts. What is less sure is whether Right Sector amounts to a serious political force. None of its members died in last month's unrest, fuelling claims the umbrella movement is guilty of romantic paramilitary play-acting as well as incoherence.
"They're not fascists. They're peasants," the hotel's black Angolan doorman, Claudio Miguel, said witheringly of his shadowy guests. He added: "They don't come from Kiev. They're from faraway villages."

Oh dear, not very clever

 

[where to]

Twitter journalists reporting fatal violence in Donetsk tonight.

At least 1 pro Ukraine death reported. YouTube footage shows pro UA group encircled by pro Russia/ anti Maidan crowd at buses, pelted with missiles and fireworks. Small number of Police held back crowd poorly, facing pro UA lot rather than pushing out against pro Russians. Think they eventually got breached and pro UA group got beaten.

Pro Russians seemed to shout Berkut/ Russia, possibly Naziya at the pro UAs too.

Not clear where buses were from. Looks like they were for pro UA group though. Haven't spotted any far right paraphernalia.

A disaster for non nationalists on all sides.

 

[co-op]

With regard to "fash-friendly", I'm probably going to be berated for saying this, but if Ukraine is to have any hope of a democratic form of governance, even an imperfect form, then it needs to be a form that incorporates the entire political spectrum, regardless of how distasteful or despicable we might find parts of that spectrum. You can only really beat the hard right by showing that their ideas are fatuous, not by anathematising them.

Fuck me. Really? Is this where the U75 anarchists are at? We are supposed to support the inclusion of openly Nazi political parties in a new govt in the name of "democratic governance"?

 

[DrRingDing]

With regard to "fash-friendly", I'm probably going to be berated for saying this, but if Ukraine is to have any hope of a democratic form of governance, even an imperfect form, then it needs to be a form that incorporates the entire political spectrum, regardless of how distasteful or despicable we might find parts of that spectrum. You can only really beat the hard right by showing that their ideas are fatuous, not by anathematising them.

Have you turned into a liberal?!

I would like the blood thirsty VP back plz.