DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Anyways a short interview with a Ukranian anarchist....
http://www.schnews.org.uk/stories/CRIMEA-RIVER/
http://www.schnews.org.uk/stories/CRIMEA-RIVER/
Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Which people?
toblerone3
Grrrrr
This is the sort of thread that Urban does well. Problem is its much too long to read.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
They wouldn't dare say that about the BNP, whose moderation has gone further and is far more genuine. The guardian is so shit.
Because the referendum is a farce. No matter which way the vote goes, Crimea will end up as part of Russia. (See my post # 3289.)
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Sunday.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
1) The entire spectrum of Ukrainian nationalism is being tarred with the fascist/Nazi brush.
2) That's "an U75 anarchist". Don't generalise from a single instance.
3) The "openly Nazi" political parties make up a tiny fraction of the political spectrum. If Ukraine doesn't have the balls to put them in their place, then they deserve everything they get (unlike you, I'm sanguine that the rational majority, under democracy, would fuck the hardliners right off.)
4) The "new govt" has fuck-all to do with democracy. Those who comprise the new govt have nothing to do with democracy. Democracy can come only with the delivery of free and fair (as promised) elections.
Thanks for showing you hadn't bothered to actually read what I wrote before being overwhelmed by the rush to condemn, though.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No.
I'm someone with a family history there, who feels that the only way clear for Ukraine is to embrace democracy tightly. Unlike some, I believe that will only be achieved through actually allowing Ukraine to make its own mistakes. Unlike many here, I'm not at all convinced that a Ukraine where the excesses of fascism and of Sovietisation are still carved on the landscape, will embrace a totalitarianism. Read some history about Ukraine's subjugation under the Tsars and then the Soviets, and you might see what I'm talking about.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Gerrymander.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Who has promised these free and fair elections?
By the way, about Crimean referendum, what are your thoughts on the comparisons drawn with Kosovo and South Sudan?
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Something something Nestor Makno.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The new/ad hoc govt has said they'll run fair elections. You know, the sort of thing that always gets promised. Usually just before the govt asks the public to bend over.
I think the referendum is a stage-managed piece of theatre, and that comparisons are pointless.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
That's Makhno.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
we're not going to Ukraine - and we're certainly not going to fight Russia for Ukraine. we are however worried about Poland and all the other eastern European states who are NATO members and who feel like they might be next. the concerns are twofold - firstly that a Russia thats just dismembered Ukraine in the face of western impotence/indifference might think that the same rules will apply if it decides to 'protect its citizens' elsewhere, and secondly that unless those countries are assured that the same rules won't apply, and that NATO will back them to the hilt, they may decide to implement a strategy of 'forward defence' in which they pump cash into insurgent/terrorist/political groups that will make Russia's hold on its new found provinces as expensive and as embarrassing as possible.
there will not be a war over Ukraine - but there might well be a new cold war over Ukraine.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Bullshiter, I didn't say that. It's always a giveaway when people start chucking strawmen about.
It was an open challenge to the others to state whether they agree with what you posted. None of them have, too busy coming up with internet proofs of the extraordinary revelation that RT is biased in favour of Russia I guess.
I mean, who knew??
The silence lets me generalise.
More strawmen, bullshitter - where did I say I think the majority will rush to embrace facism? I guess I need more "balls" to really understand all this macho nationalist stuff, huh?
This "tiny fraction" of the political spectrum are in a position more powerful than any other nazi parties anywhere in the world right now (as far as I can recall). They got there via street level protest that overthrew a corrupt bourgeois govt. Not important? Your whole "govt that includes the whole political spectrum" schtick is straight out of Right Wing Politics 1.0; "this isn't a time for politics, let's put Ukraine first" right?
Like the ones that elected Yanukovich, Tymoshenko, Yushenko etc? Is this the new anarchist line here?
Thanks for showing you hadn't bothered to actually read what I wrote before being overwhelmed by the rush to condemn, though.
Pathetic reply overall VP. You said you'd probably get berated for saying what you said, you really should have had some further thoughts about what you said. Actually what followed your post was not berating but a deafening silence so I did a little mild berating. I thought you'd do better than this phoned-in rubbish, strawmen and fingers-in-ear stuff.
8ball
Merr xmas...
Will it be like Top Gun but with drones?
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Anyone who worries about that is fucking delusional. It's not going to happen. Russia isn't out for world conquest, for Christ's sake.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
That's a pretty OTT description of what Russia has done in Ukraine. The Crimea is not and never has been some historically intrinsic part of the Ukraine, it was transferred to Ukraine in a technical exercise in the 50s (and accepted into Ukraine by a govt that most of the current Ukraine regime publically slate as completely illegitimate). It's a key Russian military base and has a massively russian-speaking population, who support the Russian anschluss - as much because they have every reason to fear the new Kiev regime as because they love Mother Russia. Crimea is Ukrainian in the same way that the Falklands are British - with the main difference being that it was given to Ukraine by Russia in the first place and now it is being taken back.
I'd say Russia has moved pretty carefully and has set out obviously limited objectives. The anti-russian hysteria in the west is something quite different and presumably "our impotence" - a narrative you which you happily parrot - will allow us to reassert "our masculinity" in some other poor country soon. Like I say. different thing all together.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
No it's not. The inhabitants of the Falklands are all English speaking and identify as British. Only 24% of the inhabitants of Crimea are Ukrainian, with barely 10% of the region stating Ukrainian to be their native language.
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barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
I was full of righteous indignation at the partiality of the bbc running with the EU line on the ukrainian junta, until I happened to see a itv news report. Blimey Charlie!
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Fair enough, I was scrabbling around for a decent analogy, I think I failed. The point is the Ukrainian regime's claim to Crimea (and the west's support for that) is based on legalism about borders not any meaningful 'rightful claim'.
And even legalism might be fair enough if those western supporters NATO etc hadn't happily carved out plenty of other borders in the recent past, whether it was Germany falling over itself to recognise Slovenia or the whole of NATO carving up Serbia.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Crimea is closer to the Falklands analogy if anything.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
What "straw man"? You twatted on about the "inclusion of openly Nazi political parties", which pretty much tars any nationalist party with that brush.
Or perhaps, unlike you, they saw my post for what it was - a suggestion that Ukraine wouldn't find democracy unless it embraced the fact that alienating or banning even a small part of the political spectrum isn't democratic.
I've always believed in letting fascists and hard-rightists hoist themselves on their own petard, while keeping a weather eye to their behaviour. I'm also sanguine that the people of Ukraine, having suffered as badly under fascists as under the Soviets, are bright enough not to elect a fascist-dominated government.
The silence doesn't "let" you do anything. You take silence as having a particular quality in order to use the fact of it for your own purposes.
At least be honest.
Why else would you be bleating, unless you believe that Ukraine is in imminent danger of becoming a fascist state?
They're part of a pro tem government with little democratic legitimacy. Their "power" only exists insofar as they're allowed to undemocratically exercise it.
A street-level protest in favour of democracy, not another stitch-up. You think people will sit still for a stitch-up from any quadrant of the political spectrum, especially one that purportedly supports a form of nationalism that only a small minority of Ukrainians ever agreed with without coercion?
Don't put words in my mouth, there's a good person. What I've said has nothing to do with "let's put Ukraine first"< it's to do with putting the people of Ukraine first, and if necessary letting them, like the Greeks, make their own political mistakes.
There is no "anarchist line".
But you know that, or at least you should if you have an ounce of wit.
I said that I'd probably get berated, because I'm aware that Urban has its fair share of gobshites who don't bother to think beyond "four legs good, two legs bad!". Congratulations!
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