seventh bullet
sovietwave
Jesus Christ.
Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
I was being sarcastic? History repeating itself I think not?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Only camo has been insisting that other posters think he is though.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is just as bad though, giving him leeway.
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
for fucks sake, calm down everyone
Russia heeds your words...
MOSCOW — A Kremlin-backed journalist issued a stark warning to the United States about Moscow's nuclear capabilities on Sunday as the White House threatened sanctions over Crimea's referendum on union with Russia.
"Russia is the only country in the world that is realistically capable of turning the United States into radioactive ash," television presenter Dmitry Kiselyov said on his weekly current affairs show.
Behind him was a backdrop of a mushroom cloud following a nuclear blast.
Kiselyov was named by President Vladimir Putin in December as the head of a new state news agency whose task will be to portray Russia in the best possible light.
His remarks took a propaganda war over events in Ukraine to a new level as tensions rise in the East-West standoff over Crimea, a southern Ukrainian region which is now in Russian forces' hands and voted on Sunday on union with Russia.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/uk...d-journalist-russia-could-turn-u-s-ash-n54291
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
No, it wasn't and to be fair I said it got close to it; the reason it's not totally nuts imo to use the word is because of the historic context - Russian/Soviet treatment of all the Causcasian peoples has been barbaric in the extreme for over 100 years with millions deported and murdered, stripped of citizenships, the mass exiles to Turkey etc - these attacks together do fit the definition of genocide imo and the Chechens (and Tartars) have reasonable grounds for seeing events like the storming of Grozney as just the most recent atrocity in a long campaign.
At any rate just because Moscow has found a psychotic stooge like Kadyrov who happens to be Chechen doesn't mean it isn't genocide.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I wasn't mentioning the Kadyrov warlords (I was talking about both father and son) to somehow counter the belief of genocide being perpetrated by Russian forces and their local North Caucasian allies.
What's with fitting it in with historical treatment, which happened to other peoples in the old Russian Empire/Soviet Union and especially in the latter, which was bound up in the Stalinist conception of socialism? Genuinely interested in discussion, not a bunfight by the way.
Are you able to provide any examples of this getting 'close to it,' you've mentioned? Indiscriminate air and artillery attacks? The abuse of civilians through counter-insurgency 'cleansing' operations?
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
So what has been Eastern Europe's perfect solution to this existential threat for the last 25 years? Shock therapy, arm up some fash, persecute Russians, demonise the Russian Government and now to push for Russia to be completely blockaded. I am not sure that Poland has a particularly well-thought through strategy to secure its territorial sovereignty, it seems run by a pretty standard right-wing reactionary government itching for a dick waving contest.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Where have right wing groups been armed? The only people in The Ukraine I see running around with large numbers of weapons are the Russian troops, sorry hastily formed self defence militias.
Where have Russians been persecuted? Unless it's in the staged managed situations produced for example in The Ukraine and Georgia.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Depends what you mean by armed. Kaminski has a well known sketchy past that he is trying to keep hidden, if you are interested in one of the frontmen. He was the guy in charge of Cameron's ECR group for a short period of time.
The number of stateless Russians in the Baltic states, including large chunks of Russian towns, is pretty well known.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Armed usually means in possession of weapons and as you are talking about armed groups then I would suggest that means a significant number of the members of these groups are in possession of such weapons (and I would also suggest that in this context we are talking about military weaponry rather than a couple of old guys with shotguns).
My sympathy for Baltic Russians is limited (although not non-existent) they are the remnants and descendants of transplanted Russians who were sent to the Baltic states during Soviet times at the same time as thousands of citizens from the Baltic states were shipped off to the Gulag and from your link:
My bold.
So while my sympathy for the Baltic Russians is limited, my sympathy towards the indigenous populations is somewhat greater, they were the victims of the Soviet Unions attempts to create a Russian majority within their own countries and I certainly understand their problems with the Baltic Russians attempts to carry on with this project especially when they look to the big brother in the east for back up.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Well thank fuck you took the time to consider the plight of the Baltic Russians and the problem of extreme right politics in Central and Eastern Europe. Ship 'em back to Siberia or Stalingrad or something. Brilliant.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Why? You think a historical injustice justifies an ongoing contemporary injustice?
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
But is it an "ongoing contemporary injustice"? How I see it the ethnic Russian population want to carry on with the historical injustice. They are accepted within the country (and I can speak for Latvia with some knowledge) they have their own political representation, they have their own social events that are widely attended by Latvians of all ethnicities and yet they seem to be pining for the good old days when they were the top dogs in someone else's country.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
seventh bullet
sovietwave
'Fuck off back home.'
'I was born here.'
'I was born here.'
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
No one is telling anyone to fuck off anywhere, although back in 2006 Putin did offer a resettlement package for ethnic Russians living abroad, funnily enough there wasn't too much interest in the offer.
And the ethnic Russian population was also, to a large part, born there, they are largely the victims of their own choices and their nostalgic view of the past.
And the ethnic Russian population was also, to a large part, born there, they are largely the victims of their own choices and their nostalgic view of the past.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I have visited Latvia briefly and read up on it afterwards. I was in Riga, and staying in a Russian area of the city outside the centre. I speak a bit of Russian and spoke briefly to one or two people. The situation seemed very clear, and my impression was confirmed with my reading, that the Russian areas were being neglected and any new money coming into the country was not making its way to them. There are other things, such as attacks on Russian language rights, and Latvia has flirted with introducing Latvian language tests as a requirement for citizenship.
Are Russians being burned out of their homes in Latvia? No. But are they excluded from the national identity that independent Latvia is constructing for itself? Yes, they very much are, and that has cultural, social and economic consequences. Until it is accepted by Latvian speakers there that there is such a thing as a Russian-speaking Latvian, they will continue to be excluded.
ETA: Russian-speakers in Latvia constitute by no means an economically privileged group, btw (and never did). Many are descended from people who moved there to work in the new factories. Many others are not. Before it joined/was annexed by the Soviet Union, it had a 10 percent Russian-speaking minority.
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Fuchs66
Ring a ding
One or two people isn't exactly representative is it though?
What are Russian language "rights"? There was a referendum recently to make Russian the second national language which had the highest voter turnout anyone I spoke to could remember and it failed to get through.
Latvian citizenship is available to all, it's just many ethnic Russians turn down the offer out of "principle".
Ethnic Russians are very welcome IME to be part of the national identity that has been re-constructed, but Latvians do not want a return to the Soviet Union and the power relationships between the two ethnic groups that existed then. And TBH I don't blame them.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
So it's those pesky ethnic Russians' own fault that nearly half of them still do not have citizenship?
Russian language rights are very simply defined. Official recognition of the language as one of the national languages and the right, for instance, to have your children taught in that language. The kind of minority language right that many people across the world have battled for, including the Welsh here in the UK. But because they're ethnic Russians, somehow it doesn't count?
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Well as it is open to them, yes that is basically the case.
Now as to their wanting Russian citizenship that is entirely a matter for the Russian government, which as I mentioned offered a repatriation package which included full citizenship rights, way back in 2006 which for some reason wasn't all that popular.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
As for the referendum on Russian, doesn't that merely make my point. An exceptionally high turnout, and presumably a very large proportion of the Russian-speakers voting 'yes' (although nearly half will not have had a vote at all), meaning that a significant majority of Latvian-speakers voted 'no'.
Russian-speakers are welcome and included in the sense of national identity?
Russian-speakers are welcome and included in the sense of national identity?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
High turnout because there was a high interest in the matter.
If the ethnic Russians weren't allowed to vote without full citizenship (and the Latvian who is sat in the room with me isn't sure about that) then maybe they should have thought about that before they waived that right.
Yes they are welcome but it's a quid pro quo situation and citizenship isn't given freely, although to be honest the stipulations should be a doodle for anyone who has lived all their life in the country. The Russians who have problems are those emigrating to Latvia in recent times with no knowledge of the country, its language and culture.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, a high interest from a majority of Latvian-speakers to vote no and prevent recognition. You say this as if it were a good thing.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
The majority of voters regardless of language, yes.
I would say the rediscovery of the national identity of a small country that spent a long time being kicked around by the Soviet Union and was nearly wiped out culturally is a good thing. The ethnic Russian minority is welcome to be part of that country and of that national identity but they have to recognise that things have changed and this hasn't happened overnight. Of course they may not be happy about the new situation but they need to accept that they are part of Latvia now and no longer a back water of the Soviet Union.
