Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-25

I think this point can't be emphasized enough. There is a younger generation - who are networked and through those networks have a developed and embedded worldview which is fundamentally incompatible with the actions and underpinning motivations and assumptions of Putin.

My anecdotal experience of Russia is that the artifice of western consumer capitalism being absent, as a result of sanctions or pressure, will only really hurt the lived experience of the those in the largest cities and with higher incomes. Despite what the Putin fanboys on here were saying years ago re popular support for his government, in rising living standards and investment in infrastructure, I didn't notice it out in the provinces. They really are left behind.
 
My anecdotal experience of Russia is that the artifice of western consumer capitalism being absent, as a result of sanctions or pressure, will only really hurt the lived experience of the those in the largest cities and with higher incomes. Despite what the Putin fanboys on here were saying years ago re popular support for his government, in rising living standards and investment in infrastructure, I didn't notice it out in the provinces. They really are left behind.
I think not being able to get money out of ATMs etc will have a massive effect tho, and also the reports of medicine etc shortages.
 
My anecdotal experience of Russia is that the artifice of western consumer capitalism being absent, as a result of sanctions or pressure, will only really hurt the lived experience of the those in the largest cities and with higher incomes. Despite what the Putin fanboys on here were saying years ago re popular support for his government, in rising living standards and investment in infrastructure, I didn't notice it out in the provinces. They really are left behind.
altho it is (or was in 2018) possible to find johnny walker whisky in the most unlikely looking towns in the back of beyond in siberia
 
Yeah definitely although even in a lot of more provincial towns it's possible to find places like McDonald's or Russian brands which rely heavily on ingredients produced elsewhere. This is going to have a massive impact and even for the people who can't afford to buy from the likes of zara and h and m etc I wouldn't underestimate the possibility that things are about to get much worse. :(
 
Yeah definitely although even in a lot of more provincial towns it's possible to find places like McDonald's or Russian brands which rely heavily on ingredients produced elsewhere. This is going to have a massive impact and even for the people who can't afford to buy from the likes of zara and h and m etc I wouldn't underestimate the possibility that things are about to get much worse. :(

Not saying they won't. The brunt of the economic impact will be felt by the poorest but not because they can't order a meal or buy a handbag. In far worser, life-shortening ways.
 
more than 300 soviet generals (disregarding the suppressed and executed) were killed in the second world war, about 40 american generals were killed in the same conflict, five american generals were killed in vietnam: and at least one soviet general in afghanistan. so it's not unknown for them to be in danger's way
Reading Cornelius Ryan's A Bridge Too Far, and there's this footnote early on highlighting the somewhat unfavourable career prospects of a late-period Wehrmacht general officer, based on the huge German losses on the Western Front from Overlord to Market Garden:

PXL_20220310_153705167.PORTRAIT~2.jpg
 
Been thinking about the fighter plane scenario.
Is there a possibility that the fighter planes could be shipped in a njmber of parts and put together in Poland for Ukraine pilots to fly back to Ukraine?
Or could the parts be brought from Poland to Ukraine and assembled there?
Not completely taken apart but maybe just in a small number of parts.

Were you into Airfix as a child?
 
Last edited:
My anecdotal experience of Russia is that the artifice of western consumer capitalism being absent, as a result of sanctions or pressure, will only really hurt the lived experience of the those in the largest cities and with higher incomes. Despite what the Putin fanboys on here were saying years ago re popular support for his government, in rising living standards and investment in infrastructure, I didn't notice it out in the provinces. They really are left behind.

That's really interesting. It's also the case, I know, that the voices I am talking about amplifying will be those in "the largest cities and with higher incomes".
 
fucking hell. the Russian Embassy in the Uk has a twitter account and it is using it to do this.

I don't think there are any casually brownesque scumbags left on here who'd buy that nonsense but for the record, from last week.


The basement of the maternity hospital in Ukraine’s coastal city of Mariupol transformed into a bomb shelter and nursery as Russian forces escalated their attacks on crowded urban areas Tuesday. Workers bundled one newborn and carried him down flights of stairs to the basement, where a dimly lit room cramped with beds and cribs sheltered workers and patients.
 
Didn't mean to imply anything along these lines by my earlier post. Apologies. FTR I can't recall disagreeing with you about anything and that only applies to about four other people on here.
I'm honoured. But blimey, I feel like I'm letting the side down, after all what's urban if it's not a virtual battlefield, setting the scene for flame wars and flounces, I now feel like must try harder to be more offensive!

Although tbh, I'm surprised so many others can keep track of so much beef, I feel like I've walked into the forum thread equivalent of a Fray Bentos factory at times. 🤣
 
'To put it simply, even if Russia was not ruled by a corrupt authoritarian leader like Vladimir Putin, Russia, like the United States, would still have an interest in the security policies of its neighbors. Does anyone really believe that the United States would not have something to say if, for example, Mexico was to form a military alliance with a US adversary?

Countries should be free to make their own foreign policy choices, but making those choices wisely requires a serious consideration of the costs and benefits. The fact is that the US and Ukraine entering into a deeper security relationship is likely to have some very serious costs – for both countries.'
I’ve seen this repeated by many a tankie on Twitter.

It begs the question, if countries are allowed to be concerned about the security policies of their neighbours then who on Earth would be more concerned about their neighbour than Ukraine?

The subtext for this is purely Imperialist dressed up as pragmatism. It’s a reasonable concern for superpowers but not for the folk they clusterbomb.
 
There's no underlying security concern anyway, at least in the normal sense. It's not as if Russia was seriously worried it might be invaded by Poland or Ukraine and the only answer was a war.

It's code for being uncomfortable with the potential spread of political models not involving the same person being president for four decades.
 
Still, to at least enact a twitch on today’s miserabilism dial, this twitter thread ( and the two previous to it from this same user) are well worth ten minutes of your time. Misallocation / misdirection of the FSB’s formidable resources may yet send the country spiralling into chaos as sanctions bite. The mid ranking officers & analysts are not happy.


Msybe good old Smokeandsteam is going to be proven right after all. I so hope he is.
 
Putin is one grim fucker. He almost seems to relish outrageous and blatant acts of violence - from the Salisbury poisonings to using chemical weapons in Syria to his brutalising of the people of Ukraine. Its the behaviour of gangster - sending a message via sadistic and merciless brutality. And the ridiculous denials and lies are all part of it.
Fuck trying to accommodate and "learn to live with" him and his regime. And fuck off the "all as bad as each other" argument. There is a qualitative difference between your run of the mill political leaders and regimes and the likes of Putin - hes down there with Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein or Papa Doc. Its not just hes doing what he sees as necessary / what he thinks he can get away with - ruthless cruelty its his default state.
 
Putin is one grim fucker. He almost seems to relish outrageous and blatant acts of violence - from the Salisbury poisonings to using chemical weapons in Syria to his brutalising of the people of Ukraine. Its the behaviour of gangster - sending a message via sadistic and merciless brutality. And the ridiculous denials and lies are all part of it.
Fuck trying to accommodate and "learn to live with" him and his regime. And fuck off the "all as bad as each other" argument. There is a qualitative difference between your run of the mill political leaders and regimes and the likes of Putin - hes down there with Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein or Papa Doc. Its not just hes doing what he sees as necessary / what he thinks he can get away with - ruthless cruelty its his default state.
I don't really see him as any worse than the likes of George W Bush or Benjamin Netanyahu tbh.
 
Still, to at least enact a twitch on today’s miserabilism dial, this twitter thread ( and the two previous to it from this same user) are well worth ten minutes of your time. Misallocation / misdirection of the FSB’s formidable resources may yet send the country spiralling into chaos as sanctions bite. The mid ranking officers & analysts are not happy.


Msybe good old Smokeandsteam is going to be proven right after all. I so hope he is.

Article here that says failures in the FSB have a lot to do with why things have unfolded as they have, and that putin is furious about it.

"Since 2014, the agency had spent a lot of time and resources on attempts to foment unrest in western Ukraine among far-right groups, which ultimately came to nothing, Soldatov said. Their assessments of popular support among Ukrainians for a Russian invasion and the extent to which the country would resist were also “terribly miscalculated"..

“We can’t rule out the fact that the intelligence they gathered on the ground was in fact very good,” said Soldatov. “The problem is that it is too risky for superiors to tell Putin what he doesn’t want to hear, so they tailor their information. "


from here.
 
Putin is one grim fucker. He almost seems to relish outrageous and blatant acts of violence - from the Salisbury poisonings to using chemical weapons in Syria to his brutalising of the people of Ukraine. Its the behaviour of gangster - sending a message via sadistic and merciless brutality. And the ridiculous denials and lies are all part of it.
Fuck trying to accommodate and "learn to live with" him and his regime. And fuck off the "all as bad as each other" argument. There is a qualitative difference between your run of the mill political leaders and regimes and the likes of Putin - hes down there with Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein or Papa Doc. Its not just hes doing what he sees as necessary / what he thinks he can get away with - ruthless cruelty its his default state.

An understandable stance but still an incomplete, distorted one.

Some powers have had a reputation for especially overt forms of brutality for a very long time. For example plenty of people were especially keen not to be captured by soviet forces in world war 2, likely for rather good reasons. There was a well-earnt reputation for brutality and the reputation itself was used as a source of power and intimidation. But there are other examples too, for example people have reasons not to want to end up being captured by the USA either. The detail of the brutality and its justification varies and its completely reasonable for people to argue about those details and what level of equivalence exists, but I dont trust those arguments to be fair and balanced when in the middle of a particular conflict with vivid and horrendous examples of one regimes brutality on show every day.

For example dont ask me to overlook the other conflicts we have heard so much about this century, dont ask me to forget about the bravery of being out of range, Guantanamo bay, rendering to hidden prisons, waterboarding, sexual humiliation and the use of dogs. Dont ask me to forget who supplied and trained security forces that shot unarmed protesters during uprisings, and who was happy to sell more equipment to regimes that not long earlier had been having their snipers shoot protesters in the eye. Dont ask me to judge more favourably the use of euphemisms such as 'collateral damage' and 'shock and awe' compared to the sort of bullshit justifications Russia is fond of.

We can condemn all of those things without giving Russia and Putin any sort of let off. We can condemn terrible acts of brutality and bloody murder in all their forms whenever they occur and whoever they are conducted by, and regardless of what justifications are used by the regimes that carry out these acts. We can regard all of these things as terrible and regard all perpetrators as contemptible and criminal without having to create special new categories of horror that we then only apply to countries that it is politically convenient to apply them to. Double standards are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I would still focus on the crimes of Putin and his regime in this thread because this thread is about a war in progress that he started, where many terrible things are happening. Its only when other people start going on about how this stuff is somehow different to other particular things we've seen that I feel the need to indulge in this sort of post. If my words wind people up then there is a simple solution, stick to the war in question here and dont invent new categories of horror when this horror is not actually new to the human condition.
 
Last edited:
I don't really see him as any worse than the likes of George W Bush tbh.

We dont know because Bush was never in a position where he could do what Putin can do - I think that's the key difference between the liberal democracies and the autocracies - in the former what the public will tolerate is a big brake on state action - whatever the "morality" of the person in charge. Also the present Russian state seems to be built on bribes and threats - opponents of putin get sidelined, smeared, jailed or (very publicly) assassinated. The power systems in the US (or the uk or japan) may have plenty of corruption - but its nothing like the institutionalised gangsterism of russia. Even when you had someone like Trump - who would very likely be only too happy to inflict mass violence on anyone in his way - there were limits on his violent caprice.
The US in Iraq could get away with - say - bombing the fuck out of Fallujah without any real regard for civilian casualties - but blatantly and obviously targeting hospitals or columns of fleeing civilians as a terror tactic would be a step too far - never mind using chemical weapons or bombarding cities on the scale we are seeing now.
 
Putin is one grim fucker. He almost seems to relish outrageous and blatant acts of violence - from the Salisbury poisonings to using chemical weapons in Syria to his brutalising of the people of Ukraine. Its the behaviour of gangster - sending a message via sadistic and merciless brutality. And the ridiculous denials and lies are all part of it.
Fuck trying to accommodate and "learn to live with" him and his regime. And fuck off the "all as bad as each other" argument. There is a qualitative difference between your run of the mill political leaders and regimes and the likes of Putin - hes down there with Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein or Papa Doc. Its not just hes doing what he sees as necessary / what he thinks he can get away with - ruthless cruelty its his default state.
To be clear here I don't think the Russians were actually responsible for chemical weapons attacks in Syria, that was the Assad regime itself. They were though very much responsible for indiscriminate bombing of hospitals and still ongoing bombings of civilian targets and a coordinated and still ongoing disinformation campaign to discredit the OPCW's findings and investigations into the chemical weapons attacks.
 
That's really interesting. It's also the case, I know, that the voices I am talking about amplifying will be those in "the largest cities and with higher incomes".

When I say province I don't just mean rickety villages out in the sticks but also cities comparable in size to places like Manchester here in the UK, falling apart for the majority, with public services that despite the efforts of those who work in them, decent access is theoretical.

It's not that people who live in these places don't have things to say on what is going on, just barriers of class and money prevent it. After all, it's the poor, uneducated working class barely men who have been sent by Putin into Ukraine to be turned into red mist or blobs of smouldering flesh. The 'connected' in the areas that matter socially and economically should, where they can, and if they're brave enough, seek to build a movement that includes them. Easy for me to say, I'm not looking at the prospect of police beatings or prison sentences in the double figures for daring to oppose the war.
 
I don't really see him as any worse than the likes of George W Bush or Benjamin Netanyahu tbh.
George W Bush and Netanyahu are indeed bad buggers, but I think it's the scale of the attack in Ukraine which seems to put Putin at a bigger bastard level. The tactics of the Russian military do seem to be going in the direction of 'total war'. Then again, what was 'shock and awe' about? And hitting that full Belgrade train (though I don't seem to recall the US military saying it was full of nazis).
 
George W Bush and Netanyahu are indeed bad buggers, but I think it's the scale of the attack in Ukraine which seems to put Putin at a bigger bastard level. The tactics of the Russian military do seem to be going in the direction of 'total war'. Then again, what was 'shock and awe' about? And hitting that full Belgrade train (though I don't seem to recall the US military saying it was full of nazis).

Neither of those events involved the deliberate targeting of civilians so I don’t really see how you can compare them to the actions of Putin and Assad.
 
Back
Top Bottom