Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[SpookyFrank]

Yes it is.

It is a bunch of people promoting themselves and their political brands through the medium of choreographed superficial discussion.

Yeah, this. There's no proper analysis of arguments, no structured debate, no obligation for anyone to present any evidence for anything they say. Hence people like Farage can come across relatively well despite spouting nothing but falsehoods, hollow soundbites and fallacious arguments.

 

[chilango]

Yeah, this. There's no proper analysis of arguments, no structured debate, no obligation for anyone to present any evidence for anything they say. Hence people like Farage can come across relatively well despite spouting nothing but falsehoods, hollow soundbites and fallacious arguments.

...and there are no consequences.

It doesn't matter what the guests say, or whether they "win".

It changes nothing. Literally nothing.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Excellent demo against Farage at the Corn Exchange in Edinburgh yesterday.

 

[tony.c]

Excellent demo against Farage at the Corn Exchange in Edinburgh yesterday.

Nigel Farage faces barrage of Edinburgh protest
Edinburgh Evening News
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/nigel-farage-faces-barrage-of-edinburgh-protest-1-3404499

 

[Awesome Wells]

You'd have to say the same about all the parties then.

Maybe so. But this isn't an all party thread.

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe so. But this isn't an all party thread.

If you were to say in all seriousness that all the parties are fascist parties then you'd show that you don't understand what fascism is, what neo liberalism is and many other things into the bargain.

 

[SpackleFrog]

As I said, i'd prefer they spent more time deconstructing their policies.

But that doesn't change the fact that Farage just talks over everyone.

Why are you so obsessed with the guy you call a fascist being rude and talking over the nice politicians?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Why are you so obsessed with the guy you call a fascist being rude and talking over the nice politicians?

It's a hobby

 

[SpackleFrog]

It's a hobby

Yes. You're a hobbyist. A dispassionate observer.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Yes. You're a hobbyist. A dispassionate observer.

If you want a serious answer then ask a serious question; staying off by accusing NBC of an obsession is just being a dick.

Besides I would have thought it obvious why I'd object to people talking over each other : i want to hear what the are saying.

 

[SpackleFrog]

If you want a serious answer then ask a serious question; staying off by accusing NBC of an obsession is just being a dick.

Besides I would have thought it obvious why I'd object to people talking over each other : i want to hear what the are saying.

Nobody else does.

It was a serious question; how can you obsess over his tendency to interrupt people and simultaneously genuinely believe him to be a fascist? Why are you more concerned about his manners than the nazi political tendencies you perceive him to embody?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Nobody else does.

It was a serious question; how can you obsess over his tendency to interrupt people and simultaneously genuinely believe him to be a fascist? Why are you more concerned about his manners than the nazi political tendencies you perceive him to embody?

I have no idea what this is meant to mean. If you want to aska serious question try avoiding stupid hyperbole. Also look up obsession in the dictionary.

 

[Nylock]

And I would call ukip fascist: their attitudes toward social justice, unemployed, workers rights, womens rights, parents rights, and rights in general, are extremely regressive. I don't want these tossers anywhere near government.

Sorry, but calling UKIP Fascist demeans the term. UKIP may be xenophobic, bigoted, sexist, rampantly neoliberal, anti-working class, driven by a sense of nostalgia for the 'good old days' of chauvinistic British exceptionalism before we were neutered and ruled by the nasty EU and generally seem to advocate a return to the 1950's (but without a publicly owned NHS) BUT this does not make them fascist.

 

[DotCommunist]

.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I would call ukip fascist.

try avoiding stupid hyperbole.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

ukip-why-are-they-gaining-support

Another possible reason for discussion and / or reflection:

Their would-be opponents spending too much time and effort trying to outsmart one another on threads such as this?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Tony Parsons has endorsed them. Always thought he was a smug wanker, but it's just advanced a few levels. Same bilge about the elite not understanding ordinary lives or something. I won't link. Farage understands ordinary lives with his Ritz Parties, private school education, banking past and massive expense accounts. Goes without saying.

And Parsons to the Dupes Parade. He's nowhere near poor, so he's less with the lemming logic.

ETA : have been reminded that he wrote some pro empire stuff a couple of years back, so he has form as an establishment stooge anyway.

 

[killer b]

If you want to aska serious question try avoiding stupid hyperbole.

this is a joke, right? good one.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I gave my reasons, I think they are valid. Accusing me of obsession is just insulting and stupid.

 

[killer b]

So, if they want to be taken seriously, posters should avoid using hyperbole? I'm glad we finally agree.

 

[chilango]

I don't think you're obsessed, that was tbf an inaccurate criticism.

You made a post pissed off at UKIP, a sentiment many here would no doubt share.

posters tried to use your post to draw out inconsistencies and contradictions that might weaken the veracity of your Anti-UKIP argument - weaknesses not only shared by other anti UKIP types, but sadly a common feature of ineffective liberal responses to various right wing movements over the years.

Up to you whether you want to listen, however grudgingly.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I don't think you're obsessed, that was tbf an inaccurate criticism.

You made a post pissed off at UKIP, a sentiment many here would no doubt share.

posters tried to use your post to draw out inconsistencies and contradictions that might weaken the veracity of your Anti-UKIP argument - weaknesses not only shared by other anti UKIP types, but sadly a common feature of ineffective liberal responses to various right wing movements over the years.

Up to you whether you want to listen, however grudgingly.

That's fine, then do so respectfully and without sniffing and sneering, which is all to common on here from some quarters. But projecting my one post, to one message board online, to mean something more than it did is as ridiculous and unproductive as calling someone 'obssessed' because they would rather politicians didn't shout each other down.

And the fact it was Question Time, which may well be a lightweight edited affair (i have no illusions about that at all), is irrelevant. That programme is still taken seriously by people who will include some persuaded by the likes of farage (the audiences always seems predominantly right wing/libertarian even). I think that's important: when Owen Jones was on with IDS, we saw IDS lose his temper and that image has pervaded ever since. IDS hasn't been on that show since and there is no doubt in my ind he has been invited, so it counts for something however small.

 

[brogdale]

That's fine, then do so respectfully and without sniffing and sneering, which is all to common on here from some quarters. But projecting my one post, to one message board online, to mean something more than it did is as ridiculous and unproductive as calling someone 'obssessed' because they would rather politicians didn't shout each other down.

And the fact it was Question Time, which may well be a lightweight edited affair (i have no illusions about that at all), is irrelevant. That programme is still taken seriously by people who will include some persuaded by the likes of farage (the audiences always seems predominantly right wing/libertarian even). I think that's important: when Owen Jones was on with IDS, we saw IDS lose his temper and that image has pervaded ever since. IDS hasn't been on that show since and there is no doubt in my ind he has been invited, so it counts for something however small.

I think many viewers of last week's QT will remember the representatives of the former three main parties closing ranks and backing each other to close out Farage. One particular instance will remain etched upon my memory; Umunna piling in to dig Shapps out of hole when he hadn't quite squealed with enough volume that Farage had identified the two/three of them as representing the political establishment. This particular outing for Farage will have added further to their polling rise.

 

[butchersapron]

That's fine, then do so respectfully and without sniffing and sneering, which is all to common on here from some quarters. But projecting my one post, to one message board online, to mean something more than it did is as ridiculous and unproductive as calling someone 'obssessed' because they would rather politicians didn't shout each other down.

And the fact it was Question Time, which may well be a lightweight edited affair (i have no illusions about that at all), is irrelevant. That programme is still taken seriously by people who will include some persuaded by the likes of farage (the audiences always seems predominantly right wing/libertarian even). I think that's important: when Owen Jones was on with IDS, we saw IDS lose his temper and that image has pervaded ever since. IDS hasn't been on that show since and there is no doubt in my ind he has been invited, so it counts for something however small.

You're actually serious aren't you? Despite spending the last 3 weeks making abusive or hyperbolic posts on this thread wat seems like every third post. I'v e not once seen you offer any analysis as to why ukip are doing well, what this means or even just informed comment on others posts that do offer this. Just i hate farage, i hate the media, why do the media like farge whining.

Btw, yet another set of great polls for UKIP overnight:

Survation Euro poll:

UKIP 32% (+1)
Labour 28% (no change)
Conservatives 21% (-4)
LibDem 9% (+3)

Opinium/Observer general election:

Labour 33% (-1)
Conservatives 29% (-3)
UKIP 20% (+2)
LiberalDemocrats 9 (+2)

 

[chilango]

I agree that sneering is an inadequate form of criticism that should be avoided.

As I said above, points are be taken from your postings to represent something wider than just your views because it's an echo of views that we've heard before all too often (perhaps why it is being dismissed more quickly than you'd like too).

I think you're wrong about QT. It really is of no consequence.

 

[Favelado]

I think many viewers of last week's QT will remember the representatives of the former three main parties closing ranks and backing each other to close out Farage. One particular instance will remain etched upon my memory; Umunna piling in to dig Shapps out of hole when he hadn't quite squealed with enough volume that Farage had identified the two/three of them as representing the political establishment. This particular outing for Farage will have added further to their polling rise.

That's an interesting point. As I was watching, I felt that Farage was having his worst public appearance for some time, but you're right that it's going to have played very differently for other viewers.

 

[DotCommunist]

I really don't know what shapps was doing on there tbf. He looks and sounds like a confidence trickster, and a fraudulent scammy cunt. Which is funny, cos he is.

but he didn't seem to do anything othr than make himself and his party look shit. At least Man Who Would Be King ummana came off as concerned an well meaning (while dodging any straight question).

 

[butchersapron]

I think many viewers of last week's QT will remember the representatives of the former three main parties closing ranks and backing each other to close out Farage. One particular instance will remain etched upon my memory; Umunna piling in to dig Shapps out of hole when he hadn't quite squealed with enough volume that Farage had identified the two/three of them as representing the political establishment. This particular outing for Farage will have added further to their polling rise.

Indeed, and let's be honest - the demand from wells and others is not that Farage be more polite - it's that the above ally with the leading media/cultural/political institutions in the state and shut him up, freeze him (and by extension those supporting UKIP for whatever reason) out of public political debate. And, by a second extension, we find that the lib-dems, the tories and labour are the only legitimate acceptable voice of politics. And they bleat about democracy whilst they try and gag voices they don't like or agree with.

 

[butchersapron]

I agree that sneering is an inadequate form of criticism that should be avoided.

As I said above, points are be taken from your postings to represent something wider than just your views because it's an echo of views that we've heard before all too often (perhaps why it is being dismissed more quickly than you'd like too).

I think you're wrong about QT. It really is of no consequence.

Meaningless - except for political journos who then go on to write even more meaningless stories that no one reads about individual performances. The fact is, before Griffin's appearance turned around the figures the program was being prepared to be dumped.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I think many viewers of last week's QT will remember the representatives of the former three main parties closing ranks and backing each other to close out Farage. One particular instance will remain etched upon my memory; Umunna piling in to dig Shapps out of hole when he hadn't quite squealed with enough volume that Farage had identified the two/three of them as representing the political establishment. This particular outing for Farage will have added further to their polling rise.

I would agree with this entirely. In fact Ken Clarke's response to Paul Nuttal on the radio was even worse. In fact he probably went so far that he may well have contributed to splitting the tory vote (only tories are going to listen to him anyway).