Uaf Swp Lmhr Fuck Off!!!!

[durruti02]

so ( pushing my luck) if we accept this then surely to stop the bnp we are best to concentrate on day to day issues rather than anti fascism? more SP than SWP if you were?

 

[urbanrevolt]

mate what is the role of fascism?? it is the far right wing of capital yes?? so capital had a need for a third force in the 7ts .. i suspect the NF were supportted by the sort of scum who were working behind the scenes and organising and calling for coups etc then .. sterling and all

after the election of thatcher they had NO function .. none .. for the right wing in the w/c and for the right wing of the state .. so they disappearred electorally BUT BUT BUT the level of support though for their policies stayed

so we have in 1979 the NF greatly increasing their vote and it is claimed a major victory for the anl .. in the Isle of Dogs we saw Beackon increase his vote .. and again a victory is claimed as he loses .. do you not see the problem???

anti fascism does NOT actually DEAL with the root causes of fascism in the w/c .. it can not .. .. it thinks it can wipe it out by dealing with it electorally or physically .. but come crisis it will always reappear UNLESS you actually deal with why it is there in the first place which cross party cross class politics can never do ..

I actually agree with most of this as well Must be the heat!

It's much better than

You Are Making Things Worse ... The People Interested In The Bnp Already Think You Are A Bunch Of Middle Class Wankers .. Bullshit Demos When We Face Serious Issue Will Make Things Worse ..

Do Somethig Uselfull .. Help An Old Lady Across The Road .. Help Your Neighbour With Their Shopping .. Get Involved With The Tra Or Ra .. Set Up A Food Co-op .. Campiagn For Better Kids Facilities .. Become A Mentor .. Whatfuckingever!!!!!!

just Fuck Off With Your Bullshit Anti Fascism

A genuine anti-fascism must also deal with class politics and why it's not in the class interests of the working class to be racist and address how we can rebuild class solidarity and a wrking class movement that can win concessions for working class people as part of a movement to overthrow capitalism and have the working class run our own lives.

I think we may even agree on the need for organised self-defence against fascist attacks and indeed other physical attacks on working class people e.g. by the state.

Where we disagree I think is in the tactics of saying oppose an anti BNP rally. I'd say build for it but make the point that such rallies have to be only a aprt of a much wider movement including organising over the issues affecting both white and Black workers- housing, job cuts, crap services, privatisation. You'd -durruti02- I think would agree with most of that but say the demo is a dsitraction but while arguing this you are not helping build a bigger antifascist anti-proivatisation pro-working class movement I think.

 

[brasicritique]

your not treating me and anybody else on "the left" as human beings,

this is laughable paranoia i am disagreeing with the logic behind your strategie which is based on dictat ; the 'workers' do what RessistencePMT and and chairman panda tell them to you are not really different in your concept of the working class as you see them as fodder

you are just talking to a caricature you created in your own head (as many people have pointed out already on this thread).

bring back nino

You are telling them didactically that we all have to view the world in the same way you do, and use exactly the same tactics as you do, or else you will "not stop attacking" the left.

no you can view the world how you want to i have not told you or anyone else on these boards how to view the world according to the word of brasic you are grasping at straws here. why would i ?

And no i will not stop attacking the left until as i posted earlier they come back to ALL of working class

I bet you are one of these who advise those closest to you not to get involved in any mass campaigns involving the trade unions, Socialist worker, or any other organisations you consider beyond the pale.

No not really i let people make up there own minds even though i take it you mean the unions who treelover has pointed out support neo-con welfare and economic policies ? the unions who are run by new labour drones ( apart from the RMT's bob crowe the only free thinking union boss ) the same unions who give there memebers no choice with regards to the fact there subscriptions go towards bank roling a neo con new labour party ?

If your organisations are beyond the pale thats your problem and reveals how you are not flexable either in terms of ideology or facing up to the chllanges that are now confronting the left

This guy has got more politics than you will ever have. but you are far too smug and clever to do that aren't you. Aren't you being a bit arrogant? Why do you have to "argue with those closest to you and challenge their views"? surely if they are concerned about black men with big willies shagging white girls, you should just address their concerns, whatever they are, not challenge them? Butch constantly refuses to explain what you put in place of the theory of "contradictory levels of consciousness". As far as I understand it butcher would suggest you arguing and challenging working class people is because you think they are bit "fick.

God nino come back !all is forgiven !all you are doing here is all speculating all i can say is that you are so outdated that you dont even realise how racsist elements of the above comment are now themselves considered. No one i know talks about black men like this and as far as i am aware the main concern people have with regards to race is in terms of white eastern european immigration so it really highlights the fact that you are either a right wing troll or even more out of touch than even i originally thought .your the 'fick ' one here

PS. Here is another one for you. Karl Marx also got his maid, yes his maid, pregnant.

This is pathetic and really exposes you for the lemon you are. He got his maid pregnant so what well he was certainly consistent with other members of the ruling class in that he could afford to employ a maid to impregnate in the first place in any case i was refering to his comments with regards to engels to start with

I bet the Quaker free born John had no such peccadilloes?

john went to prison for his belives and in any case we can say and think what we want about christians and the god squad but some might say the quakers have done more for human rights than either you or marx ever have

 

[brasicritique]

You appear to be missing the point that anyone who pursues neo-liberal (neo-conservative is a different kettle of fish, you'll find ) economic policies, is, by definition, sweet fuck-all to do with left-wing politics, whether they choose to label themselves as "left" or not, they're just cunts.

No pnada your wrong the left have adopted a postion which is now underpinning both neo -liberal and neo-conservative politicies

may i refer you to the unions

Sunshine, if you assume I'm a "leftie", then you haven't got a fucking clue what my politics are, let alone knowing whether they're "grounded in reality".

I dont care what your poliitcs are panda i dont care what you are or who you are full stop anyone that reaches 30,000 + posts needs some fresh air if your going to use stale arguements then expect to have people disagree with you hows your cliff richard gangsta rap going looks like Ressistance wants to do a remix

 

[brasicritique]

If you talk bollocks, then I have the right to correct you.

Actually there was a big difference, because at least with the council tax, getting CTB is relatively simple, getting poll tax benefit was such a nightmare that CABs etc got snowed under helping people fill the claim forms out.

E2A. As poll tax benefit wasn't based on the individual's ability to pay, it was also far more unfair than CTB.

This is splitting shit but then you have got your head your arse

 

[brasicritique]

wtf r u taliking about? the distinction by violent panda made is important because the distinction is the difference between complete and utter defeat for the working class and poor, and the limited victory they, THE WORKING CLASS AND THE POOR, won! along with getting rid of one of the most hated prime minister's in British history. it celebrates the fact that the working class and was a poor won, and the Tories and the rich got beat. the victory could have been a lot better, but it was better than nothing, surely? why are you trying to downplay the working class victory as unimportant?

oh dear i spose thats the trouble with selling newspapers that no one reads you get bored and then start reading them yourself and then end up beliving your propaganda

both you and panda seem to arguing that the council tax has not make people poorer and we should be gratefull we have not got the poll tax as a result

were people better of under the old rates system?

i am sure all the poor and working class people i know will forgive me for downplaying a victory

 

[durruti02]

......

 

[durruti02]

I actually agree with most of this as well Must be the heat!

cold showers all round! can you share with MC?

 

[TremulousTetra]

this is laughable paranoia i am disagreeing with the logic behind your strategie which is based on dictat ; the 'workers' do what RessistencePMT and and chairman panda tell them to you are not really different in your concept of the working class as you see them as fodder



bring back nino



no you can view the world how you want to i have not told you or anyone else on these boards how to view the world according to the word of brasic you are grasping at straws here. why would i ?

And no i will not stop attacking the left until as i posted earlier they come back to ALL of working class




No not really i let people make up there own minds even though i take it you mean the unions who treelover has pointed out support neo-con welfare and economic policies ? the unions who are run by new labour drones ( apart from the RMT's bob crowe the only free thinking union boss ) the same unions who give there memebers no choice with regards to the fact there subscriptions go towards bank roling a neo con new labour party ?

If your organisations are beyond the pale thats your problem and reveals how you are not flexable either in terms of ideology or facing up to the chllanges that are now confronting the left




God nino come back !all is forgiven !all you are doing here is all speculating all i can say is that you are so outdated that you dont even realise how racsist elements of the above comment are now themselves considered. No one i know talks about black men like this and as far as i am aware the main concern people have with regards to race is in terms of white eastern european immigration so it really highlights the fact that you are either a right wing troll or even more out of touch than even i originally thought .your the 'fick ' one here





This is pathetic and really exposes you for the lemon you are. He got his maid pregnant so what well he was certainly consistent with other members of the ruling class in that he could afford to employ a maid to impregnate in the first place in any case i was refering to his comments with regards to engels to start with



john went to prison for his belives and in any case we can say and think what we want about christians and the god squad but some might say the quakers have done more for human rights than either you or marx ever have

why is it when you argue "with those closest to you" you aren't being elitist?

 

[TremulousTetra]

oh dear i spose thats the trouble with selling newspapers that no one reads you get bored and then start reading them yourself and then end up beliving your propaganda

both you and panda seem to arguing that the council tax has not make people poorer and we should be gratefull we have not got the poll tax as a result

were people better of under the old rates system?

i am sure all the poor and working class people i know will forgive me for downplaying a victory

nope, nope, and I doubt they even listen to you.

 

[brasicritique]

why is it when you argue "with those closest to you" you aren't being elitist?

 

[brasicritique]

nope, nope, and I doubt they even listen to you.

yeah thats right

 

[audiotech]

so ( pushing my luck) if we accept this then surely to stop the bnp we are best to concentrate on day to day issues rather than anti fascism? more SP than SWP if you were?

I disagree.

 

[ViolentPanda]

this is laughable paranoia i am disagreeing with the logic behind your strategie which is based on dictat ; the 'workers' do what RessistencePMT and and chairman panda tell them to you are not really different in your concept of the working class as you see them as fodder

Except of course that I don't tell "the workers" to do anything, do I?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No pnada your wrong the left have adopted a postion which is now underpinning both neo -liberal and neo-conservative politicies

Any credible proof to support this claim?

may i refer you to the unions

Which union(s) have a "neo-conservative" position?

I dont care what your poliitcs are panda i dont care what you are or who you are full stop anyone that reaches 30,000 + posts needs some fresh air

Anyone who relies on sad name-calling and references to post-counts needs a sense of perspective.

if your going to use stale arguements then expect to have people disagree with you hows your cliff richard gangsta rap going looks like Ressistance wants to do a remix

You live in your own little dream-world, don't you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Truth hurt, did it?

This is splitting shit but then you have got your head your arse

No, its not "splitting shit", as you well know (but refuse to acknowledge because you'd have to admit to being an arse), it's accurate, whereas your claim wasn't. Get over it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

why is it when you argue "with those closest to you" you aren't being elitist?

Because he's better than everyone else, he's the only person *fit to pass judgement, obviously.

*in his dreams, like.

 

[brasicritique]

Truth hurt, did it?

No, its not "splitting shit", as you well know (but refuse to acknowledge because you'd have to admit to being an arse), it's accurate, whereas your claim wasn't. Get over it.

Hurt yeh right i am like yknow really hurting get the ego on you this is the most laughable thing you have ever said on any post.

BTW my cliam was accurate the poorest were and are hit the hardest are you disputing the fact that under the proposed poll tax and the as is council tax that the poor pay more? The fact you and mp3 are posting on the merits of the council tax says it all really

The poor pay more full stop. no amount of weasel stats or debates over figures or terminology or relative differences make the blind bit of difference to people in the real world and the fact that this does not even register with you or mp3 merely demonstrates how out of touch you really are

do the poor pay less is or not?

Mp3 an panda urbans answer to peep show but sadder

 

[brasicritique]

Because he's better than everyone else, he's the only person *fit to pass judgement, obviously.

*in his dreams, like.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[durruti02]

I disagree.

ok but i don't see the logic of how you can agree with me on the first bit but not this .. please explain

 

[brasicritique]

Any credible proof to support this claim?

Which union(s) have a "neo-conservative" position?

Anyone who relies on sad name-calling and references to post-counts needs a sense of perspective.

You live in your own little dream-world, don't you?

The proof is on other threads and google is a search engine. In broadly supporting nulab policies which are and have neo con elements the unions are supporting indirectly but still wholeheartdly neo con ideas and a process of globalisation which is making the poor poorer the rich richer and throwing up election results like those of the other week to which your response is vote labour

30,000 + posts panda to me and others this alone would suggest that your real world is purley digital

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hurt yeh right i am like yknow really hurting get the ego on you this is the most laughable thing you have ever said on any post.

BTW my cliam was accurate the poorest were and are hit the hardest are you disputing the fact that under the proposed poll tax and the as is council tax that the poor pay more?

I'll reiterate what I said yet again for you, council tax was less harmful than the poll tax because it cost less per household and did less social harm.

The fact you and mp3 are posting on the merits of the council tax says it all really

I've said it had merits over the poll tax it replaced, I haven't said it has inherent merits per se. If you're unable to distinguish that, it's your tough luck, isn't it?

The poor pay more full stop. no amount of weasel stats or debates over figures or terminology or relative differences make the blind bit of difference to people in the real world and the fact that this does not even register with you or mp3 merely demonstrates how out of touch you really are

Which is what this boils down to, brasicattack showing how "in touch" he is, and how "out of touch" anyone who doesn't agree with him is.

do the poor pay less is or not?

Depends whether they qualify for and/or claim CTB. I'd have thought that someone as "in touch" as you would know that.

Mp3 an panda urbans answer to peep show but sadder

Says it all about you, doesn't it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The proof is on other threads and google is a search engine.

You make the claim, you provide the proof.

In broadly supporting nulab policies which are and have neo con elements the unions are supporting indirectly...

"Broadly" but "indirectly", eh? Ever occurred to you that this would be more an issue to do with a lack of trade union democracy and the dominance of an elite who're looking for future careers as politicians than it is to do with union support for an agenda that has "neo con elements"?

but still wholeheartdly neo con ideas and a process of globalisation which is making the poor poorer the rich richer and throwing up election results like those of the other week ...

Globalisation was a fact of life a century before Strauss first theorised the ideas behind neo-conservatism, what makes a difference is the fact that our current manifestation of the globalisation of trade extends beyond goods to services as well as being drivel by neo-liberal economics and the rhetoric of a "free market".

...to which your response is vote labour

You won't be able to find a single post where I say "vote labour", because I don't believe that any solution to the current problems lie with the major parties.

30,000 + posts panda to me and others this alone would suggest that your real world is purley digital

You're entitled to believe whatever makes you feel most comfortable, Nimrod.

 

[audiotech]

ok but i don't see the logic of how you can agree with me on the first bit but not this .. please explain

You dismiss anti-fascism out of hand and you see it from the perspective of a statement made during the IWCA's formation many moons ago.

Seems you're still arguing for the continuation of the electoral tactic, which has just turned in some miserable results for most of the left, so why continue along this failed path to nirvana?

Anyway, I don't see why you would want to drop anti-fascism from your politics, particularly now?

 

[durruti02]

You dismiss anti-fascism out of hand and you see it from the perspective of a statement made during the IWCA's formation many moons ago.

Seems you're still arguing for the continuation of the electoral tactic, which has just turned in some miserable results for most of the left, so why continue along this failed path to nirvana?

Anyway, I don't see why you would want to drop anti-fascism from your politics, particularly now?

how often do i go on about electoralism on here MC???? i spend far far more time talking about organising at work ( an area i disagree with the iwca on btw) but yes i do think electoralism on top of sustained local work is still key

i am very confused .. i made a clear argument that anti fascism was the wrong response to fascism .. with which you stated you agreed .. you are now again arguing for anti fascism! confused!


"your comment about anti-fascism not dealing with the root causes of fascism in the working class I would agree to some degree. Anti-fascism is usually an indication of a political weakness amongst the left, rather than any indication of strength"

 

[audiotech]

how often do i go on about electoralism on here MC???? i spend far far more time talking about organising at work ( an area i disagree with the iwca on btw) but yes i do think electoralism on top of sustained local work is still key

i am very confused .. i made a clear argument that anti fascism was the wrong response to fascism .. with which you stated you agreed .. you are now again arguing for anti fascism! confused!

Anti-fascism is a response to fascism, whether you like it or not.

 

[durruti02]

Anti-fascism is a response to fascism, whether you like it or not.

er well yes of course! but 'anti fascism' is a specific political ideology that has certain fundamentals .. which i believe set back the w/c .. like working with or voting for those who fuck you up

 

[audiotech]

er well yes of course! but 'anti fascism' is a specific political ideology that has certain fundamentals .. which i believe set back the w/c .. like working with or voting for those who fuck you up

What specific ideology?

Anti-fascism is about working with a layer of labour party activists, trade unionists and others, some of whom follow different ideologies, some none.

A radical left can unite with Labour activists against the BNP, it can also also maintain its independence and campaign on local issues that New Labour no longer delivers on.

 

[audiotech]

how often do i go on about electoralism on here MC???? i spend far far more time talking about organising at work ( an area i disagree with the iwca on btw) but yes i do think electoralism on top of sustained local work is still key

Yes, in the trade unions and on reflection I would agree on your last two points also.

 

[brasicritique]

You make the claim, you provide the proof.

your still listening to staus quo

"Broadly" but "indirectly", eh? Ever occurred to you that this would be more an issue to do with a lack of trade union democracy and the dominance of an elite who're looking for future careers as politicians than it is to do with union support for an agenda that has "neo con elements"?

that was the point you catch on fast

Globalisation was a fact of life a century before Strauss first theorised the ideas behind neo-conservatism, what makes a difference is the fact that our current manifestation of the globalisation of trade extends beyond goods to services as well as being drivel by neo-liberal economics and the rhetoric of a "free market".

tell me somthing i didnt know. You really are patronising

You won't be able to find a single post where I say "vote labour", because I don't believe that any solution to the current problems lie with the major parties.

you just did

You're entitled to believe whatever makes you feel most comfortable, Nimrod.

well fuck you very much! if my training serves me correctly a nimrod was a military intelligence areoplane so thanks for the compliment. I have yet to find the right military metaphore for you lo i was thinking along the lines of battle of the bulge