Uaf Swp Lmhr Fuck Off!!!!

[TremulousTetra]

so you are not involved in any workplace, union or community struggles are you?
SNIP
and please define my 'ultra left' position. i do not recognise this in the slightest. you are not making sense with this at all.

the election results in my area in my OPINION completely contradict your analysis. have a look at very bottom of this page, you didn't respond to it, I guess you missed it. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=7497629#post7497629

the problem with discussion is that is taking place on too many threads.

 

[The Black Hand]

Attica - Your last 3 political activities boasted about on this site have been:

1. Attending Searchlight's public meeting in the North East to 'network'
2. Producing a political magazine aimed virtually entirely at those active in left wing politics
3. Attending the "1968 and all that conference" in Conway Hall

As usual you are wrong Paul. Try something useful for a change.

 

[durruti02]

the election results in my area in my OPINION completely contradict your analysis. have a look at very bottom of this page, you didn't respond to it, I guess you missed it. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=7497629#post7497629

the problem with discussion is that is taking place on too many threads.

hi rm .. will look again at that post .. but my initial reaction is again individual instances do not always contradict general ones! but i''ll look again anyway

 

[durruti02]

As usual you are wrong Paul. Try something useful for a change.

so what is it that you do that involves you on a day to day base with w/c struggle? and what leads you to develop the analysis of fascism that you have? it seems to be your analysis comes out of obscure magazines and is not based on working and talking with w/c people who are inviolved directlyin struggles. Why should anyone take anything you say seriously? Let alone when most of what you do is vomit up Serachlight mistruths. Your misunderstanding of how the 800k vote for the BNP in 2004 was a euro vote and that their council vote was only 200k is typical of how wrong you have been over and over again in this debate .. not even just analytically but statistically.

 

[The Black Hand]

so what is it that you do that involves you on a day to day base with w/c struggle? and what leads you to develop the analysis of fascism that you have? it seems to be your analysis comes out of obscure magazines and is not based on working and talking with w/c people who are inviolved directlyin struggles. Why should anyone take anything you say seriously? Let alone when most of what you do is vomit up Serachlight mistruths. Your misunderstanding of how the 800k vote for the BNP in 2004 was a euro vote and that their council vote was only 200k is typical of how wrong you have been over and over again in this debate .. not even just analytically but statistically.

No. You're wrong again.

 

[The Black Hand]

he he .. now my son, i do not assume at all! Attica IS a self proclaimed academic and has stated so for many many years now.

Just a point - here is an example where I deny being an academic on U75 from summer last year;


http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6479226&postcount=908

 

[JHE]

Just a point - here is an example where I deny being an academic on U75 from summer last year;


http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6479226&postcount=908

You're more of an organic interlekchewal, aren't you?

 

[The Black Hand]

what leads you to develop the analysis of fascism that you have?

i developed the autonomous anti fascist position because it is an extension of theoretical work I have already done. It has been obvious to me for some time that fascism/anti fascism could be ignored (more trouble than it was worth), but recently the attention it is getting is out of all proportion to its importance, but this is still worth discussing as it is a big issue. I do not accept what RA have written historically, I do not accept the theorisation for the IWCA, I do not accept UAF/ANL/Searchlight forms of anti fascism either. I have long criticised anarchist politics for being apolitical, without serious strategic thought. Indeed, I brought up strategic anti fascism at the last CW conference I attended.


So I developed autonomous anti fascism out of the work of the 'black E.P. Thompson' - A. Sivanandan, and the historical experience of fighting racism and fascism, and also current manifestations. Indeed, you have only to look at the article of mine you should have read which talks about many groups working against racism, and a politicisation of anti fascism through a strategic reordering of the importance of welfare practice as a means towards 21st century class formation as anti fascist politics.


Continuing my criticism of the pathetic state of anti fascist politics today, I have been back to the church which Paul attended in May 1999. One of my relatives was having her confirmation, and we went back to her folks house for grub and beer. It was overflowing and there was a wide range of migrants there in a popular gathering, far larger than anything Anti fa have put on. And this in one small area of Sunderland, where the bnp are supposedly doing well. Here, this one church is doing great civil society work, welfare, and real multiculturalism. I attended as part of the family, as an athiest and a political observer of real society, rather than an abstract pure one which doesn't exist.

 

[The Black Hand]

You're more of an organic interlekchewal, aren't you?

Certainly Gramsci's and EP. Thompsons appreciation of this sort of working class activist is one to aspire to.

 

[The Black Hand]

so you are not involved in any workplace, union or community struggles are you? fair play due to circumstances not everyone who is w/c is directly involved, and yes class struggle happens in domestic life too, but i would still think you would have the insight to understand how this disassociation can affect your thinking. You always bang on about praxis .. and a key ( fundamental obviously) part of praxis is the practice. I see or hear, nor have seen nor heard, of you doing any practice for over a decade. I apologise absolutely if you have been involved so, in durham, but i would guess you would boast about it on urban if you did.

like many academics you see to believe that being involved intelectually through reading and writing magazines is direct involvement in the class struggle. It is NOT. It do not say it does not have a role but without praxis is thinking of little importance.

I am not just having a pop for the sake of it but it relates to the thread, that you are continually coming out with nieve blinkered misinformation ( usually from searchlight or their clones ) on here. It is bleedin obvious that you are totally out of touch with what is happenning with the bnp, why they have grown and what this says about the uk left at the minute, and how this all affects what we need to do.

And what is sadder is you have, totally against what you claim, become totally anti 'w/c autonomy' by your support for making union with the refomist leaderships of the w/c rather than the alienated and disempowered w/c themsleves.

and please define my 'ultra left' position. i do not recognise this in the slightest. you are not making sense with this at all.

A) so you are not involved in any workplace, union or community struggles are you? fair play due to circumstances not everyone who is w/c is directly involved, and yes class struggle happens in domestic life too, but i would still think you would have the insight to understand how this disassociation can affect your thinking.
B) You always bang on about praxis .. and a key ( fundamental obviously) part of praxis is the practice. I see or hear, nor have seen nor heard, of you doing any practice for over a decade. I apologise absolutely if you have been involved so, in durham, but i would guess you would boast about it on urban if you did.

C) like many academics you see to believe that being involved intelectually through reading and writing magazines is direct involvement in the class struggle. It is NOT. It do not say it does not have a role but without praxis is thinking of little importance.

D) I am not just having a pop for the sake of it but it relates to the thread, that you are continually coming out with nieve blinkered misinformation ( usually from searchlight or their clones ) on here. It is bleedin obvious that you are totally out of touch with what is happenning with the bnp, why they have grown and what this says about the uk left at the minute, and how this all affects what we need to do.

E) And what is sadder is you have, totally against what you claim, become totally anti 'w/c autonomy' by your support for making union with the refomist leaderships of the w/c rather than the alienated and disempowered w/c themsleves.

F) and please define my 'ultra left' position. i do not recognise this in the slightest. you are not making sense with this at all.

A & B) I have been part of several struggles, and my life as part of the precatariat is on the front line day in and day out – I live and have lived an everyday class war. This is perhaps why I am short tempered cos many leftists (eg. IWCA) do not understand the pressures people have to exist and how this affects their choices, and being too eager to condemn doesn’t help. I put on line propaganda, I do not talk about everything/every struggle I do because I prefer it that way. Believe it or not I am security conscious and I do not put on line anything that could subsequently be used against me/us by t’other side in whatever way. All my writing is historically, theoretically and practically grounded, I have an autonomous anti fascist position which is different to the ultra left position of the class bores. MAM ended in 2003, a mere 5 years ago. Your maths and general knowledge do let you down a bit.

C) is a very badly phrased question; you obviously do need to read a bit more. I know reading Trade union magazines do not take forward class struggles directly, but it can indirectly and moving forward is what counts. It does give you a purchase on class consciousness though.

D) I disagree.

E) Again I disagree, I am for working class autonomy, but you have opted out of seeing whether autonomy is possible inside the structures first, your position has to be earned rather than assumed theoretically or by default. I am offering no support for ‘reformist leaderships’ or ultra left leaderships. Rather I prefer autonomy inside and outside of trade unions, inside and outside of the labour movement institutions. This line is theoretically similar to Dave Douglass in “All power to the imagination” – inside and outside the NUM….

F) Your ultra left position, that ‘we have to start again independently’ prior to eg. united front political work, or within the existing structures. Basically I would rather see what becomes possible through alliance building first, rather than get it written off in advance which is an idealistic and non Marxist position.

 

[brasicritique]

Gibberish.

Then next time make the point rather than gibbering on and not saying what you mean concisely.

If i did not have a life then maybe i could be half-arsed. In any case i am sure other urbanites have no trouble in understanding my posts unless you are now claiming to speak for all of them as well

If you know it, then why write something contradictory to what you supposedly know, oh wise one?

Because contradiction is the human condition may i refer you to your own politics

Yes, on a thread where I was illustrating a point to you, which is somewhat different from actually promoting and supporting the labour party.

i have yet to see you say do not vote labour oh endorser of the council tax

As Google is apparently your best friend, perhaps you should look up the meaning of "Nimrod" before thanking me, eh?

Google said Nimrod is in context to the RAF AGILE! ADAPTABLE! CAPABLE!
if your point is a couple crashed then so what. As i said the old training

BTW Nimrod means "Hunter"; and was a Biblical Mesopotamian king

I have put this here for your benefit though you probabaly knew this, Sorry panda i am far to humble to accept such an acolade

Ah, more of your wit. Well done, but try to actually be funny next time, there's a good boy.

So your not disputing your battle of the bulge metaphore then

 

[The Black Hand]

excellent post!

I seem to remember discussion ages ago with butchers a.k.a. Napoleon, along the lines that the KPD were right to label the SDP social Fascist.

Cheers.

 

[The Black Hand]

A & B) I have been part of several struggles, and my life as part of the precatariat is on the front line day in and day out – I live and have lived an everyday class war. This is perhaps why I am short tempered cos many leftists (eg. IWCA) do not understand the pressures people have to exist and how this affects their choices, and being too eager to condemn doesn’t help. I put on line propaganda, I do not talk about everything/every struggle I do because I prefer it that way. Believe it or not I am security conscious and I do not put on line anything that could subsequently be used against me/us by t’other side in whatever way. All my writing is historically, theoretically and practically grounded, I have an autonomous anti fascist position which is different to the ultra left position of the class bores. MAM ended in 2003, a mere 5 years ago. Your maths and general knowledge do let you down a bit.

C) is a very badly phrased question; you obviously do need to read a bit more. I know reading Trade union magazines do not take forward class struggles directly, but it can indirectly and moving forward is what counts. It does give you a purchase on class consciousness though.

D) I disagree.

E) Again I disagree, I am for working class autonomy, but you have opted out of seeing whether autonomy is possible inside the structures first, your position has to be earned rather than assumed theoretically or by default. I am offering no support for ‘reformist leaderships’ or ultra left leaderships. Rather I prefer autonomy inside and outside of trade unions, inside and outside of the labour movement institutions. This line is theoretically similar to Dave Douglass in “All power to the imagination” – inside and outside the NUM….

F) Your ultra left position, that ‘we have to start again independently’ prior to eg. united front political work, or within the existing structures. Basically I would rather see what becomes possible through alliance building first, rather than get it written off in advance which is an idealistic and non Marxist position.

Did this answer your question D?

 

[durruti02]

Did this answer your question D?

no not in the slightest .. you are an arm chair activist, a wannabe intelectual and second rate academic.

You have no relation to real working class struggles and i am not really ever sure you did. (Propagandising is not the same at all.)

You consistently get facts wrong re the rise of the BNP and more importantly are incapable of objective analysis as you are obsessed with belittling Red Action and the IWCA.

Your criticism of those who note the rise of the BNP, ( in my case as it shows the failure of the left and is worryingly divisive) is fundamentally flawed by thinking that we all believe that the BNP is going to take power ..

Your distance from real class struggle and i suspect ordinary w/c people shows up so deeply in your inability to comprehend what is going on.

and kind of embarressingly you are clearly anti-autonomist with your support for 'anti fascism' searchlight and all, and do NO praxis, as you have NO practice.

again i do not say this to have a personal dig but what you are simply peddling mistruths and it is bad for developing resistance.

 

[The Black Hand]

no not in the slightest .. you are an arm chair activist, a wannabe intelectual and second rate academic.

You have no relation to real working class struggles and i am not really ever sure you did. (Propagandising is not the same at all.)

You consistently get facts wrong re the rise of the BNP and more importantly are incapable of objective analysis as you are obsessed with belittling Red Action and the IWCA.

Your criticism of those who note the rise of the BNP, ( in my case as it shows the failure of the left and is worryingly divisive) is fundamentally flawed by thinking that we all believe that the BNP is going to take power ..

Your distance from real class struggle and i suspect ordinary w/c people shows up so deeply in your inability to comprehend what is going on.

and kind of embarressingly you are clearly anti-autonomist with your support for 'anti fascism' searchlight and all, and do NO praxis, as you have NO practice.

again i do not say this to have a personal dig but what you are simply peddling mistruths and it is bad for developing resistance.

Edvard Munch.

 

[The Black Hand]

A) no not in the slightest .. you are an arm chair activist, a wannabe intelectual and second rate academic.

B) You have no relation to real working class struggles and i am not really ever sure you did. (Propagandising is not the same at all.)

C) You consistently get facts wrong re the rise of the BNP and more importantly are incapable of objective analysis as you are obsessed with belittling Red Action and the IWCA.

D) Your criticism of those who note the rise of the BNP, ( in my case as it shows the failure of the left and is worryingly divisive) is fundamentally flawed by thinking that we all believe that the BNP is going to take power ..

E) Your distance from real class struggle and i suspect ordinary w/c people shows up so deeply in your inability to comprehend what is going on.

F) and kind of embarressingly you are clearly anti-autonomist with your support for 'anti fascism' searchlight and all, and do NO praxis, as you have NO practice.

G) again i do not say this to have a personal dig but what you are simply peddling mistruths and it is bad for developing resistance.

A) Bollocks – you are an armchair wanker with this line of argument, a wannabe anti intellectual and a fool. You are a bureaucrat just like Paul - i hope you have babies together.

B) Joker – what is a ‘false’ as opposed to a real working class struggle? Propaganda is part of the struggle – ask Paul Joseph Goebbels.

C) I have got no facts wrong re the ‘rise’ (and fall) of the BNP. RA and IWCA (as RA’s bastard child) get what they dished to the anarchists back, so they can have no complaints.

D) You are not justifying the obsessive attention you are giving this issue over and above other class struggles, at the expense of spreading struggles and building a real mass movement. You have jumped to an ultra left position at the expense of testing whether broad based serious anti fascism is possible within and outside of Labour movement institutions. Clearly you have not noticed this theorisation is similar to Dave Douglass in ALL POWER TO THE IMAGINATION published by Class War – inside and outside the NUM.

E) Bollocks. Infantile rubbish.

F) I am not supporting Searchlight at all – I have denied this repeatedly. You have a problem with understanding my position. It is pro autonomy, you have just not understood what it means theoretically. You think we can, ‘just like that’ magic autonomy into being. You are imposing your version of autonomy onto conditions in a totally inappropriate way, of course that is not real autonomy. Autonomy first and foremost is practiced from where people are at, not where we want them to be. I have praxis dog breath, your ultra leftism is not praxis – it develops fuck all except your angst and ego’s.

Analysis of the anti fascist continuum is contained in MAYDAY issue 2, on the right we have Searchlight, on the ultra left we have a few pitiful independents. The huge space between these 2 positions is where the area of autonomy lies, it is also where most people (who are likely to get active) are at, at the minute, they just have not manifested yet.

G) It’s not personal – but it is political. Is the personal political?

 

[The Black Hand]

i developed the autonomous anti fascist position because it is an extension of theoretical work I have already done. It has been obvious to me for some time that fascism/anti fascism could be ignored (more trouble than it was worth), but recently the attention it is getting is out of all proportion to its importance, but this is still worth discussing as it is a big issue. I do not accept what RA have written historically, I do not accept the theorisation for the IWCA, I do not accept UAF/ANL/Searchlight forms of anti fascism either. I have long criticised anarchist politics for being apolitical, without serious strategic thought. Indeed, I brought up strategic anti fascism at the last CW conference I attended.


So I developed autonomous anti fascism out of the work of the 'black E.P. Thompson' - A. Sivanandan, and the historical experience of fighting racism and fascism, and also current manifestations. Indeed, you have only to look at the article of mine you should have read which talks about many groups working against racism, and a politicisation of anti fascism through a strategic reordering of the importance of welfare practice as a means towards 21st century class formation as anti fascist politics.


Continuing my criticism of the pathetic state of anti fascist politics today, I have been back to the church which Paul attended in May 1999. One of my relatives was having her confirmation, and we went back to her folks house for grub and beer. It was overflowing and there was a wide range of migrants there in a popular gathering, far larger than anything Anti fa have put on. And this in one small area of Sunderland, where the bnp are supposedly doing well. Here, this one church is doing great civil society work, welfare, and real multiculturalism. I attended as part of the family, as an athiest and a political observer of real society, rather than an abstract pure one which doesn't exist.

Great post