Uaf Swp Lmhr Fuck Off!!!!

[ViolentPanda]

your still listening to staus quo

Gibberish.

that was the point you catch on fast

Then next time make the point rather than gibbering on and not saying what you mean concisely.

tell me somthing i didnt know. You really are patronising

If you know it, then why write something contradictory to what you supposedly know, oh wise one?

you just did

Yes, on a thread where I was illustrating a point to you, which is somewhat different from actually promoting and supporting the labour party.

well fuck you very much! if my training serves me correctly a nimrod was a military intelligence areoplane so thanks for the compliment.

As Google is apparently your best friend, perhaps you should look up the meaning of "Nimrod" before thanking me, eh?

I have yet to find the right military metaphore for you lo i was thinking along the lines of battle of the bulge

Ah, more of your wit. Well done, but try to actually be funny next time, there's a good boy.

 

[durruti02]

What specific ideology?

Anti-fascism is about working with a layer of labour party activists, trade unionists and others, some of whom follow different ideologies, some none.

A radical left can unite with Labour activists against the BNP, it can also also maintain its independence and campaign on local issues that New Labour no longer delivers on.

anti fascism has as a specific ideology the idea that fascism is an aberation from capitalism .. i appreciate many anti fascists do NOT believe this but they are wrong to. From this follows a clear logic .. that capitalism must be defended from fascism.

so while you say it involves wiorking with the radical left actually due to it's logic it usually ends up working with or getting votes out for the NON radical political parties .. so we see the demand for voting New Labour to keep out the BNP .. we see union leaders plegde support while screwing their members or confriont the govt .. and we see New Labour bosses as signaturies to anti fascist fronts .. it makes things worse

 

[audiotech]

anti fascism has as a specific ideology the idea that fascism is an aberation from capitalism .. i appreciate many anti fascists do NOT believe this but they are wrong to. From this follows a clear logic .. that capitalism must be defended from fascism.

so while you say it involves wiorking with the radical left actually due to it's logic it usually ends up working with or getting votes out for the NON radical political parties .. so we see the demand for voting New Labour to keep out the BNP .. we see union leaders plegde support while screwing their members or confriont the govt .. and we see New Labour bosses as signaturies to anti fascist fronts .. it makes things worse

Bourgeois democracy is to be defended from fascism rather than than any notion of defending capitalism and the exploitation inherent within it, which btw the fascists in power would only intensify.

That's not to say that bourgeois democracy is under threat at present, or the fascists likely to come to power.

However, as I've said elsewhere, a radical organisation can keep it's politics independent to the politics of New Labour, but still work with Labour and trade union activists in a united front against fascism.

 

[TremulousTetra]

whoops!

 

[El Jefe]

er well yes of course! but 'anti fascism' is a specific political ideology that has certain fundamentals ..

Is it fuck.

 

[durruti02]

Is it fuck.

er yes it is .. just note MC5's post above " Bourgeois democracy is to be defended from fascism " .. this is precisely the current motor for reaction in the w/c class .. the ultimate shoot yourself in the foot!!

 

[durruti02]

Bourgeois democracy is to be defended from fascism rather than than any notion of defending capitalism and the exploitation inherent within it, which btw the fascists in power would only intensify.

exactly .. and btw it is NOT possible to defend bourgois democracy and not defned capitalism as the two are inseperable .. as as i say to jefe below it is this defence by all parties of 'democracy' that has helped the rise of the BNP

 

[TremulousTetra]

exactly .. and btw it is NOT possible to defend bourgois democracy and not defned capitalism as the two are inseperable .. as as i say to jefe below it is this defence by all parties of 'democracy' that has helped the rise of the BNP

Russia?

 

[El Jefe]

exactly .. and btw it is NOT possible to defend bourgois democracy and not defned capitalism as the two are inseperable .. as as i say to jefe below it is this defence by all parties of 'democracy' that has helped the rise of the BNP

Typical dogmatic leftist twat who would rather see people firebombed out of their fucking homes than do something that doesn't entirely adhere to an overarching theory.

So rather than doing something concrete to make the world slightly better on a day to day basis for those in need (cos that would be revisionist, that would be shoring up capitalism) you'd rather wank off on the internet about how many textbooks you've read.

Fucking twats

 

[TremulousTetra]

Typical dogmatic leftist twat who would rather see people firebombed out of their fucking homes than do something that doesn't entirely adhere to an overarching theory.

So rather than doing something concrete to make the world slightly better on a day to day basis for those in need (cos that would be revisionist, that would be shoring up capitalism) you'd rather wank off on the internet about how many textbooks you've read.

Fucking twats

there are a lot of us like that, but durritto is amongst the least worthy of that attack. It's just this one particular topic he has a bee in his bonnet about. In the rest of his politics, he does exactly what you advocate, fight to empower those in his community to take power for themselves.

and this comes from somebody who staunchly opposes what he says on this topic and immigration.

 

[El Jefe]

there are a lot of us like that, but durritto is amongst the least worthy of that attack. It's just this one particular topic he has a bee in his bonnet about. In the rest of his politics, he does exactly what you advocate, fight to empower those in his community to take power for themselves.

Well that simply doesn't equate with the stance "all anti-fascism has an ideology".

It doesn't. Anti-fascism might, in dogmatic terms, be counter-revolutionary or revisionist, but that's not the same as everyone opposed to fascism sharing key ideological tenets as he claims

 

[The Black Hand]

er yes it is .. just note MC5's post above " Bourgeois democracy is to be defended from fascism " .. this is precisely the current motor for reaction in the w/c class .. the ultimate shoot yourself in the foot!!

But where your arguement falls down is that historically fascism smashes the workers movement, so doing it your way shoots yourself in the foot. In that it potentially lets the fascists into power, it is utopian - cos you are proposing no relationship with the reformist working class as you are opposing their entire leadership.

Your 'class against class' position is objectively ultra left, but please indicate how you escape the theoretical cul de sac described.

 

[durruti02]

Typical dogmatic leftist twat who would rather see people firebombed out of their fucking homes than do something that doesn't entirely adhere to an overarching theory.

So rather than doing something concrete to make the world slightly better on a day to day basis for those in need (cos that would be revisionist, that would be shoring up capitalism) you'd rather wank off on the internet about how many textbooks you've read.

Fucking twats

what on earth are you on about??? .. your attack on me is totally wide of the mark .. apology please

.. my point is MORE people will get firebombed if the left carries on with a failing strategy that does not undercut fascism ..

 

[durruti02]

But where your arguement falls down is that historically fascism smashes the workers movement, so doing it your way shoots yourself in the foot. In that it potentially lets the fascists into power, it is utopian - cos you are proposing no relationship with the reformist working class as you are opposing their entire leadership.

Your 'class against class' position is objectively ultra left, but please indicate how you escape the theoretical cul de sac described.

you've gone right down the reformist plughole haven't you?? jaysus .. yes of course I oppose the reformist bourgois leadership .. i believe, as you once did, in the millions upon millions of working class people without a voice. revolution will come from those, fascism will die there. If we do what is uggest we will actually HAVE a workers movement that can resist fascism and capital .. have it your way we will be bemoaning a failed cross class mess

( p.s. this is what happens to all academics you know, seperated for many years from real class struggle .. you were warned )

 

[durruti02]

Well that simply doesn't equate with the stance "all anti-fascism has an ideology".

It doesn't. Anti-fascism might, in dogmatic terms, be counter-revolutionary or revisionist, but that's not the same as everyone opposed to fascism sharing key ideological tenets as he claims

you may want it to be so but sorry you are incorrect .. anti fascism is a specific ideology .. study it's history and you will see .. p.s. i have already said that many anti fascists do NOT realise this and that in itself is a problem

 

[audiotech]

you've gone right down the reformist plughole haven't you?? jaysus .. yes of course I oppose the reformist bourgois leadership .. i believe, as you once did, in the millions upon millions of working class people without a voice. revolution will come from those, fascism will die there. If we do what is uggest we will actually HAVE a workers movement that can resist fascism and capital .. have it your way we will be bemoaning a failed cross class mess

( p.s. this is what happens to all academics you know, seperated for many years from real class struggle .. you were warned )

Whenever you're losing it you tend to mention the messiah and then assume posters are academics, why is that?

Did you attend a Christian seminary, or summat?

 

[durruti02]

Whenever you're losing it you tend to mention the messiah and then assume posters are academics, why is that?

Did you attend a Christian seminary, or summat?

he he .. now my son, i do not assume at all! Attica IS a self proclaimed academic and has stated so for many many years now. He has not been involved in day to day class struggle in a decade or more i would imagine. And btw who said jaysus is the Messiah??? You have no faith in the Lubavitche Rebbe??? Goy!

 

[The Black Hand]

he he .. now my son, i do not assume at all! Attica IS a self proclaimed academic and has stated so for many many years now. He has not been involved in day to day class struggle in a decade or more i would imagine. And btw who said jaysus is the Messiah??? You have no faith in the Lubavitche Rebbe??? Goy!

Who told you that shit? I am not a self proclaimed academic - that is your biased assesment. (and a lot of tossers gossip similar to that too)

I take part in any number of class struggles, I do not limit myself I find a level that I am happy with and in issues which are of concern cos of my life experience.

Day to day class struggle goes on everywhere, it is something that you cannot opt out of.

 

[The Black Hand]

you've gone right down the reformist plughole haven't you?? jaysus .. yes of course I oppose the reformist bourgois leadership .. i believe, as you once did, in the millions upon millions of working class people without a voice. revolution will come from those, fascism will die there. If we do what is uggest we will actually HAVE a workers movement that can resist fascism and capital .. have it your way we will be bemoaning a failed cross class mess

( p.s. this is what happens to all academics you know, seperated for many years from real class struggle .. you were warned )

Wot bollocks. My position is not traditional united front, and if you read or understood that article on Autonomous Anti fascism you would know that.

I cannot see how you can effectively create a mass movement outside of a relationship within and outside of the working class movement.

The type of movement which could emerge cannot be apriori described in detail cos it is emergent thru class struggle. You on the other hand are not inventing anything new, it is just the regurgitation of 80 year old left communist crap - or ultra left crap - call it what you will

It is utopianism masquarading as working class fundamentalism. Rather than try something new, it is destined to repeat old ultra left irrelevance - and this has been proved by 15 years of going backwards IWCA.

The problem is that rather than think seriously about contradictions, alliances and debate within the working class, you are trying to impose an ideal type onto the messy and confused terrain of late modernity. How do you propose to deal with ideas of working class resistance through solidarity, in trade unions for example, that are in millions of peoples heads? Political and trade union institutions maybe decaying, but denying the possibility of fight within these working class zones is the politics of irrelevance. You cannot seriously deny that people in these zones are not a) the type of people we want, or are not b) serious about struggle. You throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If I thought you (collective you) had tried relevant strategy and tactics within these zones then that would be interesting. BUT - without such dynamic ideas, inside and outside of the labour movement, this authentic autonomy (from where people are rather than where we would like them to be) and attempts at mobilisation is 'autonomous anti fascism' i am suggesting.

 

[JHE]

Who told you that shit? I am not a self proclaimed academic - that is your biased assesment.

I proclaim thee Professor Prattle, holder of the Barstool of Praxis in the Department of Verbiage, at the College of Twaddle.

The Vice-Chancellor, Dr Parking Meter, speaks well of you, but he always sounds frightened. What have you threatened? His foxy wife, Dr Hunted, seems genuinely fond of you.

 

[The Black Hand]

I proclaim thee Professor Prattle, holder of the Barstool of Praxis in the Department of Verbiage, at the College of Twaddle.

The Vice-Chancellor, Dr Parking Meter, speaks well of you, but he always sounds frightened. What have you threatened? His foxy wife, Dr Hunted, seems genuinely fond of you.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Well that simply doesn't equate with the stance "all anti-fascism has an ideology".

It doesn't. Anti-fascism might, in dogmatic terms, be counter-revolutionary or revisionist, but that's not the same as everyone opposed to fascism sharing key ideological tenets as he claims

agreed! it is an insane bee he has in his bonnet , something a mental health worker would call a encapsulated delusion, but it is an aberration to the rest of his politics..

 

[TremulousTetra]

Wot bollocks. My position is not traditional united front, and if you read or understood that article on Autonomous Anti fascism you would know that.

I cannot see how you can effectively create a mass movement outside of a relationship within and outside of the working class movement.

The type of movement which could emerge cannot be apriori described in detail cos it is emergent thru class struggle. You on the other hand are not inventing anything new, it is just the regurgitation of 80 year old left communist crap - or ultra left crap - call it what you will

It is utopianism masquarading as working class fundamentalism. Rather than try something new, it is destined to repeat old ultra left irrelevance - and this has been proved by 15 years of going backwards IWCA.

The problem is that rather than think seriously about contradictions, alliances and debate within the working class, you are trying to impose an ideal type onto the messy and confused terrain of late modernity. How do you propose to deal with ideas of working class resistance through solidarity, in trade unions for example, that are in millions of peoples heads? Political and trade union institutions maybe decaying, but denying the possibility of fight within these working class zones is the politics of irrelevance. You cannot seriously deny that people in these zones are not a) the type of people we want, or are not b) serious about struggle. You throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If I thought you (collective you) had tried relevant strategy and tactics within these zones then that would be interesting. BUT - without such dynamic ideas, inside and outside of the labour movement, this authentic autonomy (from where people are rather than where we would like them to be) and attempts at mobilisation is 'autonomous anti fascism' i am suggesting.

excellent post!

I seem to remember discussion ages ago with butchers a.k.a. Napoleon, along the lines that the KPD were right to label the SDP social Fascist.

 

[durruti02]

agreed! it is an insane bee he has in his bonnet , something a mental health worker would call a encapsulated delusion, but it is an aberration to the rest of his politics..

rmp3 ..

some questions

1) do you deny that 'anti fascism' is a specific ideology that sees fascism as an aberation from capitalism?

2) do you believe fascism is an aberation from capitalism?

3) do you believe in calling for votes for bourgois parties to keep out the bnp, particularly New Labour?

4) if you do, why do you propose alliance with bourgois parties when the issue is the millions of alienated and disempowered people who we should concern ourselves with?

5) is the bnp the motor or symptom of reaction in this country?

p.s. language not appreciated

 

[durruti02]

Who told you that shit? I am not a self proclaimed academic - that is your biased assesment. (and a lot of tossers gossip similar to that too)

I take part in any number of class struggles, I do not limit myself I find a level that I am happy with and in issues which are of concern cos of my life experience.

Day to day class struggle goes on everywhere, it is something that you cannot opt out of.

you've boasted of being an academic for years .. and no i am not aware of what class struggle you take part in, and i have not been again for many years .. not workplace, not union not community .. you have an entirely alienated version of class struggle, that your writing and involvement in e.g. MAM, that allows you to pretend you are involved when you are not. Few people are able to commentate on class struggle so abstracted form that reality and you are not one of those.

 

[The Black Hand]

you've boasted of being an academic for years .. and no i am not aware of what class struggle you take part in, and i have not been again for many years .. not workplace, not union not community .. you have an entirely alienated version of class struggle, that your writing and involvement in e.g. MAM, that allows you to pretend you are involved when you are not. Few people are able to commentate on class struggle so abstracted form that reality and you are not one of those.

Have I boasted? Not for a few years cos I have not been.

So I am not involved with the Ultra left. Good. My view of class struggle is not alienated at all - the only alienation is from ultra left wanks who don't want to be challenged. Class struggle goes on everywhere so that is a particularly crap road of arguement Durutti, and very hierarchical, cos you really do not know. Too assume as you have done is wierd tbh especially when I have bigged up TUC events, latterly on the Asbestos campaign on U75.

I prefer the areas of autonomy inside and outside of labour movement institutions. Class struggle goes on everywhere, as it goes I talk to and read more Trade unionists & Trade Union magazines than you and that is without trying on an everyday basis. Some relations are in UCATT, the Durham Miners are my friends and that is apart from my own unions (plural).

There is an argument that says Ultra left politics is not class struggle - cos there is no struggle involved It is one I have a great deal of sympathy for.

 

[durruti02]

Have I boasted? Not for a few years cos I have not been.

So I am not involved with the Ultra left. Good. My view of class struggle is not alienated at all - the only alienation is from ultra left wanks who don't want to be challenged. Class struggle goes on everywhere so that is a particularly crap road of arguement Durutti, and very hierarchical, cos you really do not know. Too assume as you have done is wierd tbh especially when I have bigged up TUC events, latterly on the Asbestos campaign on U75.

I prefer the areas of autonomy inside and outside of labour movement institutions. Class struggle goes on everywhere, as it goes I talk to and read more Trade unionists & Trade Union magazines than you and that is without trying on an everyday basis. Some relations are in UCATT, the Durham Miners are my friends and that is apart from my own unions (plural).

There is an argument that says Ultra left politics is not class struggle - cos there is no struggle involved It is one I have a great deal of sympathy for.

so you are not involved in any class struggle, are you? this is relevent as to me it explains how you have totally missed the significance of the rise of the bnp and the fall of the left ( which you increasingly tailend).

you definition of iwca or HI as ultra left is total nonsense .. it is real left .. a left that puts people before dogma .. and autonomy? give over .. you are taking a searchlight position of that is totally against w/c autonomy ..

 

[The Black Hand]

so you are not involved in any class struggle, are you? this is relevent as to me it explains how you have totally missed the significance of the rise of the bnp and the fall of the left ( which you increasingly tailend).

you definition of iwca or HI as ultra left is total nonsense .. it is real left .. a left that puts people before dogma .. and autonomy? give over .. you are taking a searchlight position of that is totally against w/c autonomy ..

Do fek off. Your line of reasoning is increasingly desperate. Your ultra left line blinds you to the realities, regardless of the spin you try to attach to it. Class struggle is everywhere and this 'i know i am' class struggle bollocks is rubbish. You say I am not i say you are not, it gets us nowhere. What matters is theory and practice - praxis. Not ultra left cobblers from years gone dead.

Me! Tailending the left. I just fell off my seat cos that's so funny. The RA/IWCA tailended the left but over 30 years too late!!

I prefer autonomy which in no sense - theoretical or practical - can be said to tail end the left. Your ultra left rubbish 'tailends' the left commis and has not improved for 80 years, and it was still born at birth. Face it Durutti, your politics are ultra left crap I am never going to touch that shite in a million years, it's way off beam and off the plot, totally unable to cope with these new diverse and sophisticated times. Where people do not trust obscure stereotypical ultra left politics such as those you profess, simple as.

 

[durruti02]

Do fek off. Your line of reasoning is increasingly desperate. Your ultra left line blinds you to the realities, regardless of the spin you try to attach to it. Class struggle is everywhere and this 'i know i am' class struggle bollocks is rubbish. You say I am not i say you are not, it gets us nowhere. What matters is theory and practice - praxis. Not ultra left cobblers from years gone dead.

Me! Tailending the left. I just fell off my seat cos that's so funny. The RA/IWCA tailended the left but over 30 years too late!!

I prefer autonomy which in no sense - theoretical or practical - can be said to tail end the left. Your ultra left rubbish 'tailends' the left commis and has not improved for 80 years, and it was still born at birth. Face it Durutti, your politics are ultra left crap I am never going to touch that shite in a million years, it's way off beam and off the plot, totally unable to cope with these new diverse and sophisticated times. Where people do not trust obscure stereotypical ultra left politics such as those you profess, simple as.

so you are not involved in any workplace, union or community struggles are you? fair play due to circumstances not everyone who is w/c is directly involved, and yes class struggle happens in domestic life too, but i would still think you would have the insight to understand how this disassociation can affect your thinking. You always bang on about praxis .. and a key ( fundamental obviously) part of praxis is the practice. I see or hear, nor have seen nor heard, of you doing any practice for over a decade. I apologise absolutely if you have been involved so, in durham, but i would guess you would boast about it on urban if you did.

like many academics you see to believe that being involved intelectually through reading and writing magazines is direct involvement in the class struggle. It is NOT. It do not say it does not have a role but without praxis is thinking of little importance.

I am not just having a pop for the sake of it but it relates to the thread, that you are continually coming out with nieve blinkered misinformation ( usually from searchlight or their clones ) on here. It is bleedin obvious that you are totally out of touch with what is happenning with the bnp, why they have grown and what this says about the uk left at the minute, and how this all affects what we need to do.

And what is sadder is you have, totally against what you claim, become totally anti 'w/c autonomy' by your support for making union with the refomist leaderships of the w/c rather than the alienated and disempowered w/c themsleves.

and please define my 'ultra left' position. i do not recognise this in the slightest. you are not making sense with this at all.

 

[Paul Marsh]

Me! Tailending the left. I just fell off my seat cos that's so funny.

Attica - Your last 3 political activities boasted about on this site have been:

1. Attending Searchlight's public meeting in the North East to 'network'
2. Producing a political magazine aimed virtually entirely at those active in left wing politics
3. Attending the "1968 and all that conference" in Conway Hall