Uaf Swp Lmhr Fuck Off!!!!

[durruti02]

I never said it did, but the cumulative pressure from anti-fascists did affect them and did indeed push them back, as the NF leadership at the time acknowledged. The tories mopped up.

no it may have affected their activity but not their influence or support .. which was indeed transferredinto maggie ..

it is again the malign influence of leninism that thinks that by stopping street sales turning over a tabkle or no platforming that you stop the influence or interest or want in some people for fascism ..

you do not ..

 

[durruti02]

yeah sure but you can have working class camapigns of local residents organising together against e.g. privatisation, rent increases, community action for better resources, etc with socialists, trade unionists, Black and immigrant working class people playing a prominent role

but that is not anti fascism mate is it? IF we had consistently been doing what you suggest above around the country we wouldl NOT be where we are now .. to vere into anti fascism at this time ( as it isi being suggested the swp plan to do ) just makes things worse

 

[durruti02]

More fucking semantics.

it is nice to see someone open to admitting their errors!

 

[JimPage]

I never said it did, but the cumulative pressure from anti-fascists did affect them and did indeed push them back, as the NF leadership at the time acknowledged. The tories mopped up.

I think it was the multi- tactics approach of the ANL which worked- the Squads battering them off the streets adn ending their street presence, RAR as a cultural force and the ANL as a propoganda machine exising them as Nazis (which they clearly were, then)

This isnt saying that a photcopy of this will work now, but it is saying that there was a time where antifascist who espoused diferrent tactics were all able to find a home in the same antifascist movement

 

[ViolentPanda]

It was mass demonstrations involving thousands at Wood Green, Birmingham, Leicester and Lewisham that pushed back the fascists.

Am I safe in presuming that you went on these "mass demonstrations"?

Small groups of people having rucks with fascists pales into insignificance in comparison.

How about small groups of people canvassing whole wards where the NF was active, was that insignificant too, compared to those "mass demonstrations"?

And as for rucks, if you have the opportunity to run a bunch of fascists who don't even live locally out of your neighbourhood, then what's wrong with making sure they realise that they're not welcome? I know it's not "party doctrine" of any sort, and therefore might be unacceptable to you, but we can't all be bothered to check the little red book before acting.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I never said it did, but the cumulative pressure from anti-fascists did affect them and did indeed push them back, as the NF leadership at the time acknowledged. The tories mopped up.

Didn't you just imply that it was the "mass demonstrations" wot dun it, rather than "cumulative pressure from anti-fascists"? I'm sure you did!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think it was the multi- tactics approach of the ANL which worked- the Squads battering them off the streets adn ending their street presence, RAR as a cultural force and the ANL as a propoganda machine exising them as Nazis (which they clearly were, then)

That and your average Joe and Josephine Public coming to the understanding that while the NF et al might have policies with a "gut" appeal to some of them, that people who were so open in their hatred might not be the best people to trust with political power.
Which is partly why Maggie scored so heavily off the NF after appropriating so much of their agenda and re-wording it to be more socially acceptable.

 

[audiotech]

Am I safe in presuming that you went on these "mass demonstrations"?

How about small groups of people canvassing whole wards where the NF was active, was that insignificant too, compared to those "mass demonstrations"?

And as for rucks, if you have the opportunity to run a bunch of fascists who don't even live locally out of your neighbourhood, then what's wrong with making sure they realise that they're not welcome? I know it's not "party doctrine" of any sort, and therefore might be unacceptable to you, but we can't all be bothered to check the little red book before acting.

How do you think we got people to mass demonstrations? We went door to door on estates leafleting and talking to people. Also engaged with people while selling Socialist Worker.

Some nuggets once decided to walk into the pub where we were. The idiots were wearing nazi armbands too. They ended up with the armbands ripped off and a crate of empty beer bottles over their fucking thick skulls. That was one a ruck to be proud of.

 

[audiotech]

Am I safe in presuming that you went on these "mass demonstrations"?

Not all of them.

 

[audiotech]

Didn't you just imply that it was the "mass demonstrations" wot dun it, rather than "cumulative pressure from anti-fascists"? I'm sure you did!

Mass demonstrations were a way to gather people together in one mighty opposition which really pissed them off.

 

[audiotech]

I think it was the multi- tactics approach of the ANL which worked- the Squads battering them off the streets adn ending their street presence, RAR as a cultural force and the ANL as a propoganda machine exising them as Nazis (which they clearly were, then)

This isnt saying that a photcopy of this will work now, but it is saying that there was a time where antifascist who espoused diferrent tactics were all able to find a home in the same antifascist movement

Yep.

 

[urbanrevolt]

but that is not anti fascism mate is it? IF we had consistently been doing what you suggest above around the country we wouldl NOT be where we are now .. to vere into anti fascism at this time ( as it isi being suggested the swp plan to do ) just makes things worse

We need more than just militant demos to run the fascists out of the area- but we need to do that as well.

If the BNP are trying to meet in the pub up the road are you for letting them get on with it? I say no- get together a group fo local people Black and white and prevent them from meeting.

Of course that's not enough- you also need to rebuild the left and campaign politically but a workers' united front to smash fascism is part of it too.

If you want to say that's not anti-fascism fine but it sounds pretty confusing

 

[audiotech]

no it may have affected their activity but not their influence or support .. which was indeed transferredinto maggie ..

it is again the malign influence of leninism that thinks that by stopping street sales turning over a tabkle or no platforming that you stop the influence or interest or want in some people for fascism ..

you do not ..

The support for the NF collapsed, as did it's membership. As for the vote transferring? Calling the NF Nazi's assisted that process.

Leninists would argue that stopping street sales, or no platforming is not enough. An alternative needs to be built.

 

[audiotech]

it is nice to see someone open to admitting their errors!

 

[Bakunin]

Leninists would argue that stopping street sales, or no platforming is not enough. An alternative needs to be built.

Would that 'alternative' involve the SWP by any chance?

Because if the SWP CC ran the country the way they run 'The Party' (which is an Orwellian term in and of itself) then heaven help us all.

 

[urbanrevolt]

I think a much better alternative would be to have workers running society ourselves through democratic councils and workplace committees.

If we organise ourselves we should be able to make sure workers' democracy is integral to any alternative we evolve.

 

[audiotech]

Would that 'alternative' involve the SWP by any chance?

Because if the SWP CC ran the country the way they run 'The Party' (which is an Orwellian term in and of itself) then heaven help us all.

The SWP CC run the country? Not if I've got anything to do with it.

It's about the working class taking power for themselves.

Building an alternative could involve all progressive forces, but most are too busy being purer than pure.

 

[durruti02]

We need more than just militant demos to run the fascists out of the area- but we need to do that as well.

If the BNP are trying to meet in the pub up the road are you for letting them get on with it? I say no- get together a group fo local people Black and white and prevent them from meeting.

Of course that's not enough- you also need to rebuild the left and campaign politically but a workers' united front to smash fascism is part of it too.

If you want to say that's not anti-fascism fine but it sounds pretty confusing

that sounds simple but is not .. of course to attack is our gut reaction ..

but would you do it IF you knew for fact that a significant % of the local white w/c pop saw that attck as being an attack on them and made them decide to vote bnp next time??? .. and encouraged more young white kids to identify with the bnp instead of dizzy rascal or whover???

as i say i am not against militant action but let us first actually deal with those who create the real problems

 

[biff curtains]

Building an alternative could involve all progressive forces, but most are too busy being purer than pure.

I doubt it will involve most of them, revolutionary groups tend to get left behind during any genuine radical change.

 

[durruti02]

The support for the NF collapsed, as did it's membership. As for the vote transferring? Calling the NF Nazi's assisted that process.

Leninists would argue that stopping street sales, or no platforming is not enough. An alternative needs to be built.

by concentrating so on the nazis we let be elected the most nasty right wing govt this country has seen .. and we are still under that yoke today .. the left would have been better off doing what iwca say now .. getting involved in local community .. maybe we could have stopped thatcher and the nf

 

[geoff64]

.. maybe we could have stopped thatcher and the nf

that's a big fucking MAYBE ...

 

[audiotech]

by concentrating so on the nazis we let be elected the most nasty right wing govt this country has seen .. and we are still under that yoke today .. the left would have been better off doing what iwca say now .. getting involved in local community .. maybe we could have stopped thatcher and the nf

The "we" stopped the NF in it's tracks.

As for the left stopping Thatcherism?

Put simply, the left didn't have enough resources to take on such a force as Thatcherism. It would be delusional to think otherwise.

The concentration on fascists, was the result of the fascists violence carried out on the lefts meeting places, bookstores and in some cases their homes. This includes Labour party members and trade unionists.

The left then, were reacting to events.

Some work in the local community did take place, but your right in some sense at least, this was mainly around anti-fascism.

My recollections?

There was a sense of urgency somehow back then.

 

[durruti02]

The "we" stopped the NF in it's tracks.

As for the left stopping Thatcherism?

Put simply, the left didn't have enough resources to take on such a force as Thatcherism. It would be delusional to think otherwise.

The concentration on fascists, was the result of the fascists violence carried out on the lefts meeting places, bookstores and in some cases their homes. This includes Labour party members and trade unionists.

The left then, were reacting to events.

Some work in the local community did take place, but your right in some sense at least, this was mainly around anti-fascism.

My recollections?

There was a sense of urgency somehow back then.

yes reacting .. as always .. and failed .. we swopped webster ( nasty yes but of limited danger ) for the most virulent right wing govt this country has seen

and the left did NOT stop the NF .. this is a myth of dangerous proportions .. the election of thatch to the leadership of the tories, and then country did that

and thank you for accepting that yes community work was simply of anti fasc nature .. ( i did door to door sw sales at that time .. but there was nowt more )

btw 79 .. http://www.election.demon.co.uk/geresults.html

41 million electorate

thatch recieved only 13.7 million votes .. if the left had its act together they could have stopped thatcher being elected then

btw the NF increased it's vote to 190,000 in 1979 up from 76,000 in feb ' 74 and 113,000 in oct 1974

aaah the myth of the glorious ANL and its SWP leaders .. don't teach you that they increased their vote do they in swp school do they ! LOL

 

[audiotech]

yes reacting .. as always .. and failed .. we swopped webster ( nasty yes but of limited danger ) for the most virulent right wing govt this country has seen

and the left did NOT stop the NF .. this is a myth of dangerous proportions .. the election of thatch to the leadership of the tories, and then country did that

and thank you for accepting that yes community work was simply of anti fasc nature .. ( i did door to door sw sales at that time .. but there was nowt more )

btw 79 .. http://www.election.demon.co.uk/geresults.html

41 million electorate

thatch recieved only 13.7 million votes .. if the left had its act together they could have stopped thatcher being elected then

btw the NF increased it's vote to 190,000 in 1979 up from 76,000 in feb ' 74 and 113,000 in oct 1974

aaah the myth of the glorious ANL and its SWP leaders .. don't teach you that they increased their vote do they in swp school do they ! LOL

The left act together?

In 1979, the NF had 0.6 of the total vote cast, an increase of just 0.2 percent. The important point here is that they won no seats and therefore were stopped in their tracks.

To think, only a year, or two before some were saying that the NF were now the third force in British politics, above the Liberals. How wrong they were. As are the people saying similar things today about the BNP.

 

[TremulousTetra]

How about small groups of people canvassing whole wards where the NF was active, was that insignificant too, compared to those "mass demonstrations"?

And as for rucks, if you have the opportunity to run a bunch of fascists who don't even live locally out of your neighbourhood, then what's wrong with making sure they realise that they're not welcome? I know it's not "party doctrine" of any sort, and therefore might be unacceptable to you, but we can't all be bothered to check the little red book before acting.

I think that is a bit difficult to answer.it depends.

some SW comrades were were doing some kind of Stall, think it was respect, at a local market. a BNP member/candidate, a pub landlord with some of his supporters set up a BNP stall. Obviously comrades and the non-comrades from the respect stall went over and started harassing them, not beating them up. Black lad walked up, saw what was happening and walked away again. About 10 minutes later 30 black, white boxers from a gymnasium came, enough to say, the BNP stall didn't last much longer.

To me this was perfectly acceptable. In fact it's probably the perfect solution. The community organised, and legitimately expelled the fascists from using a public platform. The perfect example of no platform. The fascist have noT been banned, they DO have a right to free speech, BUT they do not have the right to say what they want WHERE EVER THEY WANT TO SAY IT. NOBODY HAS THAT RIGHT.

Personally, emotionally, every time I hear ara or anyone like that successfully rucking the Nazis, I canT help feeling YES! But politically I prefer working class actions. Mass actions is working class action, because that is our strength, our numbers. Any class can organise a minority to act on behalf of of the class.

Without doubt I consider antifascist ruck merchants comrades of anti-fascism, just comrades with a tactic I disagree with. (This goes back to your other post where you suggest SW only gets involved in any campaigns such as anti-fascism to propagate SW. )

 

[durruti02]

The left act together?

In 1979, the NF had 0.6 of the total vote cast, an increase of just 0.2 percent. The important point here is that they won no seats and therefore were stopped in their tracks.

To think, only a year, or two before some were saying that the NF were now the third force in British politics, above the Liberals. How wrong they were. As are the people saying similar things today about the BNP.

mate what is the role of fascism?? it is the far right wing of capital yes?? so capital had a need for a third force in the 7ts .. i suspect the NF were supportted by the sort of scum who were working behind the scenes and organising and calling for coups etc then .. sterling and all

after the election of thatcher they had NO function .. none .. for the right wing in the w/c and for the right wing of the state .. so they disappearred electorally BUT BUT BUT the level of support though for their policies stayed

so we have in 1979 the NF greatly increasing their vote and it is claimed a major victory for the anl .. in the Isle of Dogs we saw Beackon increase his vote .. and again a victory is claimed as he loses .. do you not see the problem???

anti fascism does NOT actually DEAL with the root causes of fascism in the w/c .. it can not .. .. it thinks it can wipe it out by dealing with it electorally or physically .. but come crisis it will always reappear UNLESS you actually deal with why it is there in the first place which cross party cross class politics can never do ..

 

[audiotech]

mate what is the role of fascism?? it is the far right wing of capital yes?? so capital had a need for a third force in the 7ts .. i suspect the NF were supportted by the sort of scum who were working behind the scenes and organising and calling for coups etc then .. sterling and all

after the election of thatcher they had NO function .. none .. for the right wing in the w/c and for the right wing of the state .. so they disappearred electorally BUT BUT BUT the level of support though for their policies stayed

so we have in 1979 the NF greatly increasing their vote and it is claimed a major victory for the anl .. in the Isle of Dogs we saw Beackon increase his vote .. and again a victory is claimed as he loses .. do you not see the problem???

anti fascism does NOT actually DEAL with the root causes of fascism in the w/c .. it can not .. .. it thinks it can wipe it out by dealing with it electorally or physically .. but come crisis it will always reappear UNLESS you actually deal with why it is there in the first place which cross party cross class politics can never do ..

Top post durruti02.

 

[durruti02]

Top post durruti02.

you agree or the heat has reduced you to sarcasm?

 

[audiotech]

you agree or the heat has reduced you to sarcasm?

I agree with most of it.

If I have you right then I agree that the far-right wing of capitalism enlisted the assistance of fascists and it's foot soldiers to intimidate the left in the seventies? This, to enable the implementation of a radical right-wing government, that dealt ruthlessly with the organisations of the working class. With a radical right-wing government in power, now no need for the fascists and their foot soldiers. Am I on the right page here?

I accept too that the level of support for the ideas the NF promoted were still there, even after their dismal performance in the elections of 79

I also accept that their vote had increased, however, they didn't win a seat, so pretty dismal for them in electoral terms. No?

I also note your criticism of the left here when you claim what they saw as a 'great victory' with Beakons defeat in the 90's, but his vote increasing. But are you right? Did the left say say it was a 'great victory'? I have my doubts.

I would add to that it's not very sensible to claim success when people see the opposite happening. Similarly, to claim that the fascists are doing well, when the opposite is happening.

Nonetheless, anyone elected who has no qualms about raising a stiff arm salute, as Beakon did caught on camera, is not good news for the left.

Lastly, your comment about anti-fascism not dealing with the root causes of fascism in the working class I would agree to some degree. Anti-fascism is usually an indication of a political weakness amongst the left, rather than any indication of strength.

 

[durruti02]

I agree with most of it.

If I have you right then I agree that the far-right wing of capitalism enlisted the assistance of fascists and it's foot soldiers to intimidate the left in the seventies? This, to enable the implementation of a radical right-wing government, that dealt ruthlessly with the organisations of the working class. With a radical right-wing government in power, now no need for the fascists and their foot soldiers. Am I on the right page here?

I accept too that the level of support for the ideas the NF promoted were still there, even after their dismal performance in the elections of 79

I also accept that their vote had increased, however, they didn't win a seat, so pretty dismal for them in electoral terms. No?

I also note your criticism of the left here when you claim what they saw as a 'great victory' with Beakons defeat in the 90's, but his vote increasing. But are you right? Did the left say say it was a 'great victory'? I have my doubts.

I would add to that it's not very sensible to claim success when people see the opposite happening. Similarly, to claim that the fascists are doing well, when the opposite is happening.

Nonetheless, anyone elected who has no qualms about raising a stiff arm salute, as Beakon did caught on camera, is not good news for the left.

Lastly, your comment about anti-fascism not dealing with the root causes of fascism in the working class I would agree to some degree. Anti-fascism is usually an indication of a political weakness amongst the left, rather than any indication of strength.

have a cold shower mate you got heat stroke! we supposed to disagree!