Uaf Swp Lmhr Fuck Off!!!!

[durruti02]

The far left were tiny tiny irrelevant groups that had no impact on anything in the 50s and for most of the 60s. CND and the Committiee of 100 had more influence. The 50s and 60s were also c=vastly more right wing than now.
Even in the 70s the Tories sounded more extreme and racist than the BNP do now.
"If you want a nigger for a neighbour vote Labour" The BNP would not dare run a campaign like that today.

you are more ignorent of w/c history than i thought .. the CPGB were active in the thousends of very strong tenants associations across the country and led successfull rent strikes etc

 

[Bakunin]

Oh come on that is bollocks. Lewisham and the head on confrontations were exactly what fucked up the NF combined with the RAR events and exposure by mass publicity re their Nazi sympathies.

Small groups getting into tit for tat reprisal fights did not do it for the NF.

I think you'll find, if we're comparing influence, that the Tories moving to the right (and thus stealing a lot of ground from under the feet of the NF) was a primary factor as well, but you choose not to even mention that.

Come to think of it, perhaps you'd like to explain why members of the 'Squads' were expelled for militant anti-fascism, if 'head-on confrontations' were the SWP's strategy of the time?

These were folk who risked their health, liberty and lives in the cause of anti-fascism. The response of the SWP was to send them expulsion letters while they languished in jail.

That is fucking shameful.

Care to defend that, Groucho?

 

[audiotech]

but is is superficial bullshit .. the swp has NEVER prioritised this strategy of local work or DCH as you well know ..


it is a direct consequence of the withdrawal from the far left from local activism since the 5ts and 6ts that has allowed a fundamental shift from left to right in w/c communities .. and you can not see this after all this ???? astonishing blindness fucking astonishing ..

The IS (forerunner of the SWP) had about 35 members in the 50's. It had about a thousand in the sixties. The Communist party had quite a large membership just after the war, but nothing really compared to say Italy, or France. Then there was the WRP.

The boom years of that period saw one of the lowest levels of struggle from the working class here so, if the working is not on the move there's not a lot any group can do about that apart from propagandise.

 

[durruti02]

Because of this you call her a middle-class wanker- that is a shit insult- she has escaped civil war, worked in all sorts of working clas sjobs and is still poud both of her skin colour and her class.

Why do you want to hurt and insult us with these pathetic insults?

do i want to?? of course i do not want to hurt or insult .. but i DO want to BEAT fascism .. the tactics being used currently have failed .. is that good????

sorry but i will repeat anti - fascism is a middle class ideology that states that capital is ok and that fascism is an aberation .. do you agree with this??

yes many anti fascist are w/c .. of course they are more likely to have the bottle to actually fight back .. but the history of w/c anti fascists is often if those activists being USED

( p.s. if the whole left argued what you did on immigration in PR do you think we would be where we are??)

 

[durruti02]

off the boat? In a debate about racists and immigrants?

But anyway what's your solution to fascism?

we say for united working class community campaigns against cuts, privatisation, crap housing and the rest, for working class cmapaigns that win, for organsied self-defence against the fascists and the other exploiters

you say what- fuck the swp? not that I'm even in the swp and nor are most of the people I know- at least they understand a class respnse to fascism though and for the violent suppression of the BNP

"we say for united working class community campaigns against cuts, privatisation, crap housing and the rest, for working class cmapaigns that win, for organsied self-defence against the fascists and the other exploiters"


.. so you are then against 'anti fascism'!!! .. and we agree yes??

 

[Groucho]

The IS (forerunner of the SWP) had about 35 members in the 50's. It had about a thousand in the sixties. The Communist party had quite a large membership just after the war, but nothing really compared to say Italy, or France. Then there was the WRP.

The boom years of that period saw one of the lowest levels of struggle from the working class here so, if the working is not on the move there's not a lot any group can do about that apart from propagandise.

The IS had about 1000 at the very end of the 60s. For most of the 60s the IS was tens then hundreds.

 

[durruti02]

Oh come on that is bollocks. Lewisham and the head on confrontations were exactly what fucked up the NF combined with the RAR events and exposure by mass publicity re their Nazi sympathies.

Small groups getting into tit for tat reprisal fights did not do it for the NF.

neither did .. the tories move to the right was massively more signficant .. lewisham is wellover blown .. busllhit swp propaganda ..

 

[audiotech]

I think you'll find the militant anti-fascist 'Squads' of the 1970's and 1980's achieved considerably more than the lollipop waving idiots of the SWP.

And I haven't forgotten the fact that they were mostly drummed out of the SWP, some recieving their expulsion letters while in jail for anti-fash related actions.

Care to explain that betrayal, Groucho?

The squads were set up by the SWP and they assisted in defending SWP meetings and others from attack.

They had served their purpose by the time the NF had collapsed in 1979.

However, some wanted to continue and this time to take the war to the fascists with secret planning and involving just a few individuals. They were expelled as a result of not abiding by a democratic decision to wind down the squads.

Despite claims to contrary, this activity acheived little and a few good activists found themselves in prison as a result

 

[audiotech]

neither did .. the tories move to the right was massively more signficant .. lewisham is wellover blown ..

But still talked about thirty years later.

 

[butchersapron]

They had served their purpose

Speaketh the commander

 

[Groucho]

....

The boom years of that period saw one of the lowest levels of struggle from the working class here so, if the working is not on the move there's not a lot any group can do about that apart from propagandise.

And just for accuracy. The boom years of the 50s saw more 'struggle' in terms of strikes than in recent years. The thing is these were often short wins won locally. There was little/no political generalisation nor was there a need to generalise since victories came easy locally.
The level of struggle increased massively in the 70s and there was political generalisation. The 'left' however was dominated by pro-Labour reformists. Our side lost because of a lack of political coherence.

 

[audiotech]

Speaketh the commander

At the time, I was for continuing.

 

[durruti02]

But still talked about thirty years later.

yes the left likes bullshit myths

 

[audiotech]

yes the left likes bullshit myths

Is that it?

 

[Bakunin]

The squads were set up by the SWP and they assisted in defending SWP meetings and others from attack.

They had served their purpose by the time the NF had collapsed in 1979.

However, some wanted to continue and this time to take the war to the fascists with secret planning and involving just a few individuals. They were expelled as a result of not abiding by a democratic decision to wind down the squads.

Despite claims to contrary, this activity acheived little and a few good activists found themselves in prison as a result

Some quotes from Dave Hann's book 'No Retreat' And yes, I know the Searchlight connection:

Page 71:

'Unfortunately, the Central Committee of the SWP decided that the ANL should also wind down its activities following the election, claiming that it had achieved its purpose because the NF were no longer a direct political threat...

...They were forced into a rethink during 1980 when it became apparent that the fascist threat was far from finished.'

Page 87:

'Unfortunately, while all this sterling work was going on, moves were afoot by the SWP leadership to oust the troublesome 'squadists.' Now that the threat from the fascists appeared to have receded and they no longer needed the Squads to protect their meetings and paper sales, we were viewed as a political embarassment.'

Page 88:

'It was clear that the party hierarchy of Tony Cliff and Duncan Hallas and the rest of the SWP Central Committee wanted us out of the SWP, and were busy engineering the conditions that would enable them to accomplish this.
John Deason, who had set up the Squads in the first place, was allotted a central role in undermining the 'squadists.' It was a clever choice, because Deason was well-liked and popular, and I personally believe there was some arm twisting going on behind the scenes.'

Page 88 again:

'Never mind that we had been jailed by the State for our efforts, and never mind that the SWP were supposedly committed to overthrowing the very same system that had locked us up.'

Page 89:

'I recieved my expulsion letter while I was still in prison...

JP was expelled at the same time, along with several other members of the Rochdale 8.'

 

[geoff64]

The squads were set up by the SWP and they assisted in defending SWP meetings and others from attack.

They had served their purpose by the time the NF had collapsed in 1979.

However, some wanted to continue and this time to take the war to the fascists with secret planning and involving just a few individuals. They were expelled as a result of not abiding by a democratic decision to wind down the squads.

Despite claims to contrary, this activity acheived little and a few good activists found themselves in prison as a result

"this activity" as you contemptuously describe it became the backbone of AFA. And is you genuinely think it "achieved little" then you are beyond arguing with ...

 

[audiotech]

Some quotes from Dave Hann's book 'No Retreat' And yes, I know the Searchlight connection:

Page 71:

'Unfortunately, the Central Committee of the SWP decided that the ANL should also wind down its activities following the election, claiming that it had achieved its purpose because the NF were no longer a direct political threat...

...They were forced into a rethink during 1980 when it became apparent that the fascist threat was far from finished.'

Page 87:

'Unfortunately, while all this sterling work was going on, moves were afoot by the SWP leadership to oust the troublesome 'squadists.' Now that the threat from the fascists appeared to have receded and they no longer needed the Squads to protect their meetings and paper sales, we were viewed as a political embarassment.'

Page 88:

'It was clear that the party hierarchy of Tony Cliff and Duncan Hallas and the rest of the SWP Central Committee wanted us out of the SWP, and were busy engineering the conditions that would enable them to accomplish this.
John Deason, who had set up the Squads in the first place, was allotted a central role in undermining the 'squadists.' It was a clever choice, because Deason was well-liked and popular, and I personally believe there was some arm twisting going on behind the scenes.'

Page 88 again:

'Never mind that we had been jailed by the State for our efforts, and never mind that the SWP were supposedly committed to overthrowing the very same system that had locked us up.'

Page 89:

'I recieved my expulsion letter while I was still in prison...

JP was expelled at the same time, along with several other members of the Rochdale 8.'

Yes, I've read it.

Well they wouldn't have been in jail, if they had taken the advice from other comrades in the SWP at the time.

A spectacular prison break organised by the SWP was not on the cards sadly.

I remember some nutter a few years later getting up at a meeting to call for SWP members to be armed. Dozy twat didn't last long. Wonder where he is now?

 

[audiotech]

"this activity" as you contemptuously describe it became the backbone of AFA. And is you genuinely think it "achieved little" then you are beyond arguing with ...

What did it acheive then?

 

[Bakunin]

Yes, I've read it.

Well they wouldn't have been in jail, if they had taken the advice from other comrades in the SWP at the time.

A spectacular prison break organised by the SWP was not on the cards sadly.

I remember some nutter a few years later getting up at a meeting to call for SWP members to be armed. Dozy twat didn't last long. Wonder where he is now?

Completely evading the point, as ever.

The quotes in question show the SWP to be duplicitous and mendacious in the extreme and just try defending sending expulsion letters to party members while they are inside for doing what the Party told them to in the first place.

They were loyal party members who risked their lives and liberty for the SWP and got in return expulsion letters. And they were expelled while doing bird.

If that's the SWP's attitude to it's own members and to prisoner solidarity, then I'm glad I'm out of the SWP.

And I'm proud of advising people, activists and non-affiliated, to stay as far from the SWP as they can.

 

[durruti02]

Is that it?

yes .. set peices that ignore the real human contact and struggles are bullshit .. the rise of thatcher and griffin were written in the turn of the swp to anti fascism and deprioritisation of the rank and file in the mid 7ts

 

[geoff64]

What did it acheive then?

I haven't got the time or the inclination to address a Q as blindlingly ignorant as this ...

 

[durruti02]

What did it acheive then?

i second that

geoff imho the expulsion or break of RA from the SWP and their theoretical idea of a working class left is one of the most important breaks/developments in the post war left in this country .. to my mind they almost immediately, instead of following that up by creating the IWCA ( which they left for 20+ years!!), got lost in anti fascism and support for irish republicanism ..


it is not that iwca and hi come from afa but from the break of the working class RA from the middle class SWP c1980 .. afa was a distraction imho

 

[cockneyrebel]

The boom years of that period saw one of the lowest levels of struggle from the working class here so, if the working is not on the move there's not a lot any group can do about that apart from propagandise.

And just for accuracy. The boom years of the 50s saw more 'struggle' in terms of strikes than in recent years. The thing is these were often short wins won locally. There was little/no political generalisation nor was there a need to generalise since victories came easy locally.

Actually there was a massive difference in strike activity.

From 1990-2007 strike figures have averaged only a few hundred thousand per year and in 2005 there was the lowest figure in history of 157,000 days.

In the 1950s it averaged out around 2.7 million days a year and in 1957 8.4 million days were lost.

In the 1960s it averaged out about 3.6 million days a year.

There were also a number of revolutionary situations around the world in the 1950s and 60s and of course the anti-Vietnam war movement and mass civil rights movement in the USA.

Also while the far left trotskyist groups might have been smaller than now, the CPGB dwarfed all of the far left put together on todays figures. Both the left and the union movement is in its worst state today than in 100 years.

But durutti I think that blaming the far left for everything that goes wrong is just a cop out and comes across as whinging.

 

[durruti02]

I haven't got the time or the inclination to address a Q as blindlingly ignorant as this ...

indulge me instead then

 

[cockneyrebel]

geoff imho the expulsion or break of RA from the SWP and their theoretical idea of a working class left is one of the most important breaks/developments in the post war left in this country

Yeap, the IWCA and HI are ground breaking historical organisations and a truely massive breakthrough for the working class.

To be honest if the SWP weren't around I would have thought the IWCA and HI would be on the verge of taking power on a national scale.

 

[durruti02]

Actually there was a massive difference in strike activity.

From 1990-2007 strike figures have averaged only a few hundred thousand per year and in 2005 there was the lowest figure in history of 157,000 days.

In the 1950s it averaged out around 2.7 million days a year and in 1957 8.4 million days were lost.

In the 1960s it averaged out about 3.6 million days a year.

There were also a number of revolutionary situations around the world in the 1950s and 60s and of course the anti-Vietnam war movement and mass civil rights movement in the USA.

Also while the far left trotskyist groups might have been smaller than now, the CPGB dwarfed all of the far left put together on todays figures. Both the left and the union movement is in its worst state today than in 100 years.

But durutti I think that blaming the far left for everything that goes wrong is just a cop out and comes across as whinging.

good clairfication above

yes .. you are 90% correct .. but it is ranting not whinging .. and anger ... you know where i am coming from .. i really think this swp left has a significant negative affect on progressive uk politics .. is it useful?? not sure .. negativity is usually NOT usefull .. but sometimes getting angry can be usefull ..

 

[durruti02]

Yeap, the IWCA and HI are ground breaking historical organisations and a truely massive breakthrough for the working class.

To be honest if the SWP weren't around I would have thought the IWCA and HI would be on the verge of taking power on a national scale.

LOL deep theoretical analysis there .. was referring to RA but whatever

 

[geoff64]

Yeap, the IWCA and HI are ground breaking historical organisations and a truely massive breakthrough for the working class.

To be honest if the SWP weren't around I would have thought the IWCA and HI would be on the verge of taking power on a national scale.

give us time, comrade, give us time

 

[Groucho]

...

I remember some nutter a few years later getting up at a meeting to call for SWP members to be armed. Dozy twat didn't last long. Wonder where he is now?

I can beat that. I was at an SWP organised meeting when some nutter brought a gun with him and asked if we could supply more

 

[cockneyrebel]

I can beat that. I was at an SWP organised meeting when some nutter brought a gun with him and asked if we could supply more

Was it Chris Nineham?

give us time, comrade, give us time