Uaf Swp Lmhr Fuck Off!!!!

[TremulousTetra]

It's a lie clearly. Are you making two seperate points or one btw?

maybe it is a lie, illuminate instead of decimate, you never know you might find you enjoy it.

 

[brasicritique]

I'm not expecting you to do anything, except put your own house in order before attacking mine. you offer no alternatives, you as someone who is doing nothing is attacking those who are doing something with inane arguments, such as so Marx and Engels were respectably petty bourgeois and bourgeoisie. so I suppose you are going to say their philosophy was not a working class philosophy either?

I don't mind constructive criticism, but there is not anyting constructive in your comments. make some suggestion of how things could be done better.

Listen PMT i have always offered alternatives i have said and continue to say that first of all you have to treat people as human beings and not political lackeys or idiots you also have to listen to peoples concerns and address them yet you carry out your stragies as more of a dictat the left need bridges from and discourse with people who come from said communities

i will not stop attacking your house or anyones house until the left come back to all the working class if they ever do cos at the moment you all seem to still think that the working class will come back to the left. As it stand this is not going to happen.

if you think these are inane arguements then your more out of touch than what even i thought you was to begin with

and as for putting my house in order unlike you i believe in dialogue with people not telling them didactically what to do i am getting sick of having to argue with those closest to me and challenge there views while smug little idiots like you make the situation worse.People like you have noooooooooooooo idea what you are talking about

we the people all people are now thought of as purely consumers and seeing how the left support neo conservative economic policies then for the poorest consumers the question is what are the left offering apart from lectures and harri inspired student uni politics


so Marx and Engels were respectably petty bourgeois and bourgeoisie.

and Racsist and sexist but i suppoose you think thats ok seeing as how there your role models then....

so I suppose you are going to say their philosophy was not a working class philosophy either?

well compared to those of 'free born john' no not really

 

[butchersapron]

maybe it is a lie, illuminate instead of decimate, you never know you might find you enjoy it.

Illuminate your floral display?
You might find otnherr posts of mine that don't fit.

 

[brasicritique]

Poll tax = charge made on each adult resident of a household.

Council tax = single charge made on residence.

SLIGHT difference.

did that make you feel better? have you burped now? what is there some sort of smug urbanite of the month award up for grabs or somthin?

council tax or poll tax = poorest hit hardest NO difference

 

[TremulousTetra]

'Marx and Engels, superheroes come to save the world from the scourge of global capitalism...

And sell a few papers.

DA-DA-DAAAAAAAAAAA!'

oh you are amongst the conspiracy theorists, who believed SW only exist to sell newspapers.

according to Marx and Engels the only "super heroes" are the working class, the working class were the only people who could save the world from the scourge of global capitalism, but the operative word is could. if they do not, then history and eg global warming shows what the alternative will be. its your choice.

 

[brasicritique]

give me global warming anyday

 

[TremulousTetra]

did that make you feel better? have you burped now? what is there some sort of smug urbanite of the month award up for grabs or somthin?

council tax or poll tax = poorest hit hardest NO difference

but think about it, it was a limited victory for the poor.

 

[TremulousTetra]

give me global warming anyday

in preference to democracy?

 

[Bakunin]

oh you are amongst the conspiracy theorists, who believed SW only exist to sell newspapers.

No, of course not, the SWP don't exist solely to sell papers.

They also stall any efforts by other groups to obtain proper advances, blame 'sectarians' whenever they fuck things up (which is most of the time), dismiss any criticism whatsoever as the work of the aforementioned 'sectarians', claim credit for the successes of others (irrespective of whether or not those successes are down to the SWP, are themselves ruthlessly sectarian, leap from one bandwagon to another leaving disillusioned activists in their wake and generally go about joyfully fucking things up for everyone.

And yes, they sell papers, or try to, usually to people who don't actually want them.

 

[brasicritique]

but think about it, it was a limited victory for the poor.

great why dont you save that line and use it when the government gives 10p back to some of the people it took it from but not all

 

[brasicritique]

in preference to democracy?

your defintion of democracy as you have demonstrated is a lot different to mine

 

[urbanrevolt]

you were doing well here but then

But you say on that basis my friends who are definitely working class are middle class wankers despite the fact that they are all solidly working class and proud of it as well as being proud of being antifascist and standing up for what is right. Perhaps get back to your comfortable existence where you don't expereince the dauily shit people put up with in working class communities? Or that's how it comes across- I'm alright jack!

you lost the plot here

I haven't lost the plot. It may have been expressed poorly I'll grant you.

What I'm saying is that to defeat the BNP we need a range of tactics- primarily to take on the class issues, to have working class campaigns that win so that all workers, including those who are tempted to vote BNP, are not taken in but see that Black workers and themselves share a common class interest. I don't think is primarily electoral but having community campaigns, organisations that represent local working class interests and persistent, patient and systematic work on these issues. Of course it is better to vote against the BNP where you can- either Labour or if there's a credible alternative a socialists or anti-privatisation candidate. But voting is not the be all and end all.

However, I'm also saying it is necessary to organise physically against the BNP to prevent them form organisng, leafleting, meeting, and marching. Why? Because by so doing they gain confidence and evidence shows where they do racist attacks increase and people are intimidated- whether asylum seekers, Black people, gay people, others.

Many of my friends- both Black and white- would feel deeply uncomfortable and threatened if the BNP met in the local area. When I asked my partner hypothetically she was alarmed and wanted to know where and when and was ready to phone people up and get something organised. I had to say look I'm only talking hypothetically. It’s offensive to be told by people on here I've never met and don't know me that because we – my friends including factory workers, caterers, builders, shop workers, office cleaners and others- believe in physical confrontation with fascists we're middle class. We're not- we're proud of our working class history and identity and it is an insult and a jibe to suggest otherwise.

 

[TremulousTetra]

your defintion of democracy as you have demonstrated where is a lot different to mine

which is what?

 

[TremulousTetra]

great why dont you save that line and use it when the government gives 10p back to some of the people it took it from but not all

wtf r u taliking about? the distinction by violent panda made is important because the distinction is the difference between complete and utter defeat for the working class and poor, and the limited victory they, THE WORKING CLASS AND THE POOR, won! along with getting rid of one of the most hated prime minister's in British history. it celebrates the fact that the working class and was a poor won, and the Tories and the rich got beat. the victory could have been a lot better, but it was better than nothing, surely? why are you trying to downplay the working class victory as unimportant?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Listen PMT i have always offered alternatives i have said and continue to say that first of all you have to treat people as human beings and not political lackeys or idiots you also have to listen to peoples concerns and address them yet you carry out your stragies as more of a dictat the left need bridges from and discourse with people who come from said communities

i will not stop attacking your house or anyones house until the left come back to all the working class if they ever do cos at the moment you all seem to still think that the working class will come back to the left. As it stand this is not going to happen.

if you think these are inane arguements then your more out of touch than what even i thought you was to begin with

and as for putting my house in order unlike you i believe in dialogue with people not telling them didactically what to do i am getting sick of having to argue with those closest to me and challenge there views while smug little idiots like you make the situation worse.People like you have noooooooooooooo idea what you are talking about

we the people all people are now thought of as purely consumers and seeing how the left support neo conservative economic policies then for the poorest consumers the question is what are the left offering apart from lectures and harri inspired student uni politics


so Marx and Engels were respectably petty bourgeois and bourgeoisie.

and Racsist and sexist but i suppoose you think thats ok seeing as how there your role models then....

so I suppose you are going to say their philosophy was not a working class philosophy either?

well compared to those of 'free born john' no not really

your not treating me and anybody else on "the left" as human beings, you are just talking to a caricature you created in your own head (as many people have pointed out already on this thread). You are telling them didactically that we all have to view the world in the same way you do, and use exactly the same tactics as you do, or else you will "not stop attacking" the left. I bet you are one of these who advise those closest to you not to get involved in any mass campaigns involving the trade unions, Socialist worker, or any other organisations you consider beyond the pale.
This guy has got more politics than you will ever have.

You need a much broader church of opinion united around the idea of anti-fascism, but this means being prepared to put down minor arguments and focus on the larger picture.

but you are far too smug and clever to do that aren't you.

Aren't you being a bit arrogant? Why do you have to "argue with those closest to you and challenge their views"? surely if they are concerned about black men with big willies shagging white girls, you should just address their concerns, whatever they are, not challenge them? Butch constantly refuses to explain what you put in place of the theory of "contradictory levels of consciousness". As far as I understand it butcher would suggest you arguing and challenging working class people is because you think they are bit "fick.


PS. Here is another one for you. Karl Marx also got his maid, yes his maid, pregnant. I bet the Quaker free born John had no such peccadilloes?

 

[audiotech]

Obviously wide of the mark re Respect, but Hocus has a point re UAF - OK there's clearly an SWP element in the leadership - Wheyface Bennett's role etc. - but the only way they can maintain this is to to keep the politics to a lowest common denominator to get a wide buy in from the union leaderships. Were - in some fantasy universe - the SWP to raise a clear class alternative, they would swiftly be marginalised and another liberal-left front group would be set up to co-ordinate trade union activity.

It's interesting that UAF had such a low profile in the London elections. Everything was put into the LMHR basket(-case). Presumably as the unions wanted to channel resources into the Ken campaign?

'Hope not Hate' campaign is probably where most resources dedicated to anti-fascism went.

 

[butchersapron]

"contradictory levels of consciousness" a phrase only ever used by rmp3. Nevertheless he demands that that i explain what he means by it.

Do you lot see why i don't bother?

 

[butchersapron]

'Hope not Hate' campaign is probably where most resources dedicated to anti-fascism went.

Searchlight then. Brilliant.

 

[audiotech]

"contradictory levels of consciousness" a phrase only ever used by rmp3. Nevertheless he demands that that i explain what he means by it.

Do you lot see why i don't bother?

Yeah, because you haven't got an argument.

 

[butchersapron]

Excellent argument. 2 days running i'm asked to defend other peoples idiot ideas.


Maybe i'll give you some time to enjoy the success of the largest ever anti-fascist blah blah ever seen.

 

[durruti02]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on how much indirect influence the SWP have.

In Barking and Dagenham for instance the far left just don't exist. There would be nothing stopping someone from trying to get a non-Leninist organisation off the ground and doing community campaigns. I think you'd be better off looking at where the IWCA is going wrong rather than trying to convince Leninist to change their mind, which they won't. You're just banging your head against the wall.

As the TV show said, go out and do something better instead.

i do do .. but everything we all do is undercut by the idiot left .. you really think that people in BnD have no idea of the far left???? nonsense .. the demo at the opera .. lee jasper .. refugees welcome here .. etc etc .. you are totally wrong on this mate .. of course they barely exist in BND that does not mean people have not an idea of them

 

[Groucho]

i do do .. but everything we all do is undercut by the idiot left .. ....

ah diddums! Why is it the 'idiot left' have so much more influence than you? Nothing you are doing wrong is it? Your inability to achieve anything whatasoever is entirely down to the SWP!

 

[durruti02]

The voice of sanity.

but is is superficial bullshit .. the swp has NEVER prioritised this strategy of local work or DCH as you well know ..


it is a direct consequence of the withdrawal from the far left from local activism since the 5ts and 6ts that has allowed a fundamental shift from left to right in w/c communities .. and you can not see this after all this ???? astonishing blindness fucking astonishing ..

 

[durruti02]

ah diddums! Why is it the 'idiot left' have so much more influence than you? Nothing you are doing wrong is it? Your inability to achieve anything whatasoever is entirely down to the SWP!

keep on fiddling while rome burns you smug fool

 

[Bakunin]

ah diddums! Why is it the 'idiot left' have so much more influence than you? Nothing you are doing wrong is it? Your inability to achieve anything whatasoever is entirely down to the SWP!

I think you'll find the militant anti-fascist 'Squads' of the 1970's and 1980's achieved considerably more than the lollipop waving idiots of the SWP.

And I haven't forgotten the fact that they were mostly drummed out of the SWP, some recieving their expulsion letters while in jail for anti-fash related actions.

Care to explain that betrayal, Groucho?

 

[durruti02]

I think your anger is totally misdirected. Do you really think the SWP are helping the BNPs growth. If so you need to articulate exactly why?
You can question the effectiveness of UAF. From your position as a supporter of the IWCA? But why not concentrate on what YOUR doing rather than picking holes in others?

becuase all the good work that millions of ordinary people do in trying to create a better place is screwed by these fools with their arrogent managerial middle class authoritarianism by demanding ALL progressive ideas are from theirs they take over every camapign they can they totally dominate the publics perception of the left via the media .. progressive ideas and the audiance in the w/c for those ideas is at an historical low .. why????? yes due to neo liberalism but also due to their fucked up theory and practice .. the influence is currently disasterous and i suspect most leftist would secretly or not agree with this

as taffboy says .. it ain't like we winning .. we are doing really really badly and yet they about to make it worse with a lurch into anti fascism

 

[Groucho]

I think you'll find the militant anti-fascist 'Squads' of the 1970's and 1980's achieved considerably more than the lollipop waving idiots of the SWP.

And I haven't forgotten the fact that they were mostly drummed out of the SWP, some recieving their expulsion letters while in jail for anti-fash related actions.

Care to explain that betrayal, Groucho?

Oh come on that is bollocks. Lewisham and the head on confrontations were exactly what fucked up the NF combined with the RAR events and exposure by mass publicity re their Nazi sympathies.

Small groups getting into tit for tat reprisal fights did not do it for the NF.

 

[Groucho]

but is is superficial bullshit .. the swp has NEVER prioritised this strategy of local work or DCH as you well know ..


it is a direct consequence of the withdrawal from the far left from local activism since the 5ts and 6ts that has allowed a fundamental shift from left to right in w/c communities .. and you can not see this after all this ???? astonishing blindness fucking astonishing ..

The far left were tiny tiny irrelevant groups that had no impact on anything in the 50s and for most of the 60s. CND and the Committiee of 100 had more influence. The 50s and 60s were also c=vastly more right wing than now.
Even in the 70s the Tories sounded more extreme and racist than the BNP do now.
"If you want a nigger for a neighbour vote Labour" The BNP would not dare run a campaign like that today.

 

[durruti02]

We need to get beyond these steretypes and build a militant working class antifascist movement to fight for the whole working class Black and white

Some white voters go to the BNP because non one is fighting their corner. We need to build a left capable of doing this

urban you have written above 2 absolutely contradictory sentances that sums up how wrong is anti fascism and the left

we do NOT need an anti fascist movement .. to stop voters going to the bnp we need an anti capitalist movement ..

 

[geoff64]

blimey, there are too many threads on the same subject for me to keep up (and i thought i was ok at multi-tasking).

just one thing, here, though, I think people have misrepresented the "iwca strategy". It ain't just about getting people elected - we will never be succesful at that all the time (or even most of the time). Of course, if you enter the elctoral arena, you do tend to judge your results by how many votes you get, but that ain't the be all and end all of the strategy, tbh. It's about offering a practical alternative to main-stream politics AND innoculating areas against far-right influence.

Again, people will no doubt point to the fact that where the "iwca strategy" has been consistently applied over the last 10 years or so, the far right has not been particularly active. Harold Hill offers an intersting case where "iwca strategy" has not been consistently applied - tried and collapsed unfortunately - and these things happen - and here we see the BNP are active.

For instance, despite "iwca electoral strategy" taking a knock in Oxford and failing to get elected in Islington or Hackney, does not mean that the BNP would have a free ride in those areas as they have in Barking & Dagenham. Difficult to prove, naturally, but I really do think that if "iwca strategy" had taken root in Barking - whether or not there were elected cllrs to show for it - then the BNP would not have been able to capitalise on conditions there as successfully as they have done.